Ever wanted to know the thoughts of car fans?

[e_dawg]

Good call, Fushigi. Nissan is a great choice for those who want power, reliability (and an otherwise decent car) for a great price. The SE-R/SoecV Sentra and Altima SE (which would be a little too expensive) are two good choices.

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the GTI. $19k gets you a high-torque 180 HP engine, but with a level of luxury and refinement rarely available in its class. Plus, it's got a 4 year B2B, 5 yr powertrain, 4 yr roadside assistance, and 12 yr corrosion warranty.

 

[e_dawg]

SoecV = SpecV

 

[timwhit]

driving on the highway at 65 mph, you hear the roar of wind and road noise; can't imagine what you would get at 80 mph (but I could never get there because the darn thing didn't have enough power on the inclines)... the lack of confidence as the car wanders a bit at 65; again, I wonder what it would be like at 80... and the list goes on...

I guess you have never been in a soft-top Jeep at highway speeds. Any car in the world is better than that. The Mustang I had was loud as hell on the highway too, but it didn't really bother me. The Jeep on the other hand is too much I can't handle it anymore it's just too damn loud. I'm talking to the point where you can't talk to the person right next to you without yelling.

Within days, I tired of the lack of refinement and nonexistent build quality. Every part of it screamed "cheap". The steering felt as if it were connected to the wheels via rubber bands. No power, despite the NVH of the drivetrain. The tranny is perfectly described as a "slushbox". You might think it handled well for all the crash and bang over the bumps, but nope.

Of course, the SRT-4 will perform and handle much better than the Neon I was blessed (cursed) with, but you will still be afraid of closing the doors with a little too much force, lest you shatter all the windows... likewise when closing the trunk... and then you will notice that the trunk lid reverbates like a sheet of tin flapping in the wind... you will curse when the trunk hinges swing down into the trunk and crushes you groceries (or worse, your new server enclosure)... after the driver's seat cushions wear out after a few months, you will feel like you've sunk into grandpa's snuggle-soft couch...

None of the cars I have owned had any refinement and it doesn't bother me in the least. I'm 21 years old, not 50, I don't need a car with a disconnected suspension feeling like a Toyota Avalon (my mom drives one). I like a bumpy ride up to a point. The Jeep is a little too bouncy of a feeling when going over bumps, but it is only really bad when the road surface is super rough. I will definately check out the build quality of the car, if the doors feel like they are made of the same stuff as tin cans then I doubt I will buy it. But, remember this is a new design for the Neon, so maybe they have fixed some of the problems that the old ones faced.

As an example of crappy build quality. One of my friends in high school had one a 4 cylinder Mustang. The thing was an utter piece of crap, the doors got dented from the slighted hit and they felt like they were going to fall off when you opened them. My Mustang on the other hand was much better built, and it didn't have the feeling that it was going to break when you closed the doors.

 

[honold]

second the vote for the gti

 

[timwhit]

I will never buy a VW for personal reasons. Check out what Edmunds has to say about the SRT-4.

 

[honold]

e_dawg tells it like it is

an srt-4 is worth less than 7k after 3 years too terrible depreciation.

 

[e_dawg]

None of the cars I have owned had any refinement and it doesn't bother me in the least. I'm 21 years old, not 50, I don't need a car with a disconnected suspension feeling like a Toyota Avalon (my mom drives one). I like a bumpy ride up to a point.

I'm not saying you have to get a boat on wheels, but why settle for poor ride quality and refinement when you can get better? And you don't have to sacrifice road feel and handling. The Toyota Celica GT-S is quite possibly one of the best handling cars on the planet, yet is surprisingly refined and comfortable over the bumps. And of course, just look at BMW's in general. A well-designed chassis can give you the best of both worlds.

I understand that you are still relatively young, but I suspect that your tastes will change fairly quickly in your early-mid 20's. It was not too long ago that I felt the same way you did (more handling, forget about comfort!) Of course, it makes no sense for us to push our preferences wrt to comfort/refinement onto you. If the SRT-4's level of refinement and build quality doesn't bother you in the least, then more power to you. Just be sure that after living with it for a while that you won't change your mind.

I don't want to get into the personal reasons why you will never buy a VW, but if it has anything to do with its German heiritage, consider that Dodge is a German owned company now.

 

[honold]

"Cons: Lacks refinement, some low-grade interior components."

 

[honold]

even if you don't want to buy a gti or any vw i would strongly suggest test driving one just to feel its construction, just so you make a better long-term decision. if you can live without it, awesome. you'll beat my gli in a 0-60, but i'd much rather have it

 

[honold]

is an acura rsx type-s that expensive?

 

[Buck]

The GTIis a nice car in my opinion. The only drawback for me is its size. Not the exterior size, the but amount of room for the driver. The combination of the steering wheel height, center console bulge, and seat adjustment limitations, makes things too tight for me. Sad too, because I like the car enough to buy one. I'll stick with my old but roomy 300D for the time being.

 

[Handruin]

is an acura rsx type-s that expensive?

About $24K. Nice car, but I'm biased. They have the TSX coming out soon which will have a larger block engine and a little more refinement.

http://www.acura-tsx.com/

 

[e_dawg]

Not a big fan of Acuras. To me, they exemplify bland. Don't get me wrong, they make super cars that have good value; it's just that to me, they lack the style, character, and fun of other makes.

Acura TSX = luxury Accord with sport suspension... kind like how the Lexus ES300 is a luxury Camry (although the ES300 was not designed with any sportiness in mind).

 

[Buck]

One other comment about small cars (like the Golf or GTI), they don't have enough room for my computer stuff. Halling around 3 boxed 19" CRTs requires a lot of space. I was thinking of making a lateral move from a sedan to a station wagon (300TD) so that I could carry more stuff.

 

[Handruin]

Not a big fan of Acuras. To me, they exemplify bland. Don't get me wrong, they make super cars that have good value; it's just that to me, they lack the style, character, and fun of other makes.

Acura TSX = luxury Accord with sport suspension... kind like how the Lexus ES300 is a luxury Camry (although the ES300 was not designed with any sportiness in mind).

I feel the same way about VW's. Don't get me wrong either, I have this fight with someone else all the time. I think honolds VW is the first one I like for style because of the rims. Everyone has their own opinion, we'll never change each others mind.

I'm pretty happy with the style of my CLS, although I could lose a small kid in the gap of my wheel wells. I don't find it looking too much like any of the other cars. (I had to get the spoiler though, to take the round out of the trunk) My car does share some part similarities inside with the accord, but that's not uncommon. The engine frame and tranny are unique though.

 

[e_dawg]

Most people find Japanese cars to be bland transportation appliances and European cars to be fun-to-drive and stylish. I would say your opinion is in the minority -- which is perfectly fine... just saying :mrgrn:

Indeed, base level VW rims suck. The Monte Carlo 17 inchers honold has are found on the GTI and GLI as VW's "sporty" rims. Check out my Long Beach 17 inchers here; the pics don't do them justice.

As far as Acuras go, the CL is fairly attractive. When I first saw a blue one on the street, it caught my eye. You gotta love the power and refinement, though...

 

[timwhit]

I don't want to get into the personal reasons why you will never buy a VW, but if it has anything to do with its German heiritage, consider that Dodge is a German owned company now.

It has nothing to do its Deutsch Heritage. I simply have had nothing but bad experiences with VWs in general. Not that my experience with other car companies is all great. But, the VW experience was not a good one at all. I have a couple friends that have VWs and I swear those things have more problems than my Jeep. To top it all off I hate how they look.

 

[Buck]

I can certainly understand about the looks Timwhit. Looks is a real personal opinion. Personally I like the plain look, but I have plenty of friends that think I'm crazy. I'm also not into cars that have aggresive styling. It's fun when I go to car shows because me and my friends can have such different tastes. C'est la Vie.

 

[Howell]

I'm in the same boat with you Tim. I have to start thinking about replacing the Legend now that is has 210K on it. You also seem to be in a similar financial situation as I. I've just started the search so the only advice I have is to search out the manufs that are offering 0% financing. I heard or read the other day that some were offering this financing for 5 years. Don't know what the details are.

 

[honold]

I think honolds VW is the first one I like for style because of the rims.

 

[honold]

http://badbeat.com/jetta/ - nospoiler pics are up

 

[Howell]

http://badbeat.com/jetta/ - nospoiler pics are up

honold, You've got to get a full side view in daylight for proper comparison. You aren't a used car salesman by night are you.

I will have to say that e_dawg has pretty much shied me away from any european automakers with his post sometime above. I guess it will be Japanese for me. Now which one.

 

[honold]

hey i only had one chance to take them after i got home :<

 

[Howell]

hey i only had one chance to take them after i got home :<

I'm actually a Jetta and BMW 3-series fan like you. Whenever you get the time to take some more pictures be sure to let us know. No rush.

 

[e_dawg]

I will have to say that e_dawg has pretty much shied me away from any european automakers with his post sometime above. I guess it will be Japanese for me. Now which one.

How did I scare you away from Euros? Anyways, if it's gotta be Japanese, it's gotta be the 6, assuming you are looking at something comparable to the Jetta. In fact, if I didn't get a Jetta in a couple years ago, I would probably be driving a 6 right now.

 

[Howell]

Don't worry about it, honold. Yes, Mk4's are known for problems with window regulators, ignition coils, MAF's, and DV's (1.8T). But the good news is that the MAF's have gone down in price significantly and everything is under warranty for 4 years -- and even longer, because these are known problems. You could have bought a Japanese car if you wanted reliability, but you bought a VW because you wanted a car with character and style.

German cars in general have more reliability problems than Japanese cars; it's the nature of the beast. I could tell you countless stories about unreliable BMW and Mercedes from friends and family, and so could others on the net... Japanese cars have always been the resale value kings; VW never has been. Their reliability was always rated below average, but the resale value of the Mk4 has been higher than expected due to the tremendous demand for them. These were hot cars. Everybody wanted one. Now that the demand has died down, so has the resale value.

I have also read that the Italians take the same attitude toward build quality as you describe for the Germans.

Perhaps I'm using a unjust benchmark. I've been driving my Legend for 5 years now . I bought it for $3900 at 150,000 miles. Now, at 210,000 miles, my maintenance costs have been: regular oil changes, 2.5 sets of tires, one set of rotors, two sets of spark plugs, one radiator cooling fan, one blower motor, one distributor, two distributor cap and rotor, two valve adjustments and one timing belt job. (All work except the timing belt and tires I did myself thank you very much. )

Nothing has died abruptly and I've never had to take alternative transportation to work.

Plus, like Tim, I'm tall (6'1") with inordinately long legs and I need a seemingly unusual amount of room for my quads. I sat in an MX-6 about two years ago (dunno the vehicle year though) and there was just not enough space. I also sat in a Sebring and RX-7 with the same result.

 

[NRG = mc²]

I have also read that the Italians take the same attitude toward build quality as you describe for the Germans.

Don't compare them, German cars have positively solid build quality... even if the mechanicals aren't up there with Japanese cars, their interiors are always better screwed together and of better materials than anyone else IMO. Japanese cars use plastics that could have been from recycled Macdonalds containers, and general quality of the finish isn't usually that good.

Italian cars on the other hand are rubbish at both - the interiors and exteriors disintegrate at the thought of a bump or some humidity, and the electricals are forever going wrong... but one thing they know how to do well is style the exterior of a car.

If not for that, manufacturers like Alfa Romeo and Lancia wouldn't be around any more - they were made from steel so thin you could read through it

Ferrari is much the same story, with the difference that their cars handle, and have a great engine. I would be surprised if you got one beyond 50,000 miles without requiring some serious work. Same applies to Rolls Royce.

 

[Buck]

My impression of Japanese cars has been different. Especially after having half my family in the car repair business for decades. Japanese cars fail just like German cars and are expensive to fix. I have family members that have had private shops, some that have worked for Mercedes Benz, others for Volkswagen of America, Volkswagen AG, and Volkswagen AG Africa. The ones in private shops have worked on German Cars, Japanese Cars, American Cars, French Cars, and Swedish. They would much rather drive either a German or Japanese car then the other three. When it comes down to which German car or which Japanese car, they all revert back to 10-15 year old Mercedes because of their longevity. All others either don't last, or become to costly to own.

Now, when I read information regarding brand new cars from places like Consumers Report, I always appreciate their method of gathering data and the frankness with which they size-up a vehicle. However, I take this data with a grain of salt, and figure in input from others, and my own personal experiences with different brands.

After that, the cheap side of me comes out and I realize that I'm not going to spend the money on a new car, regardless of who makes it!

 

[e_dawg]

Don't compare them, German cars have positively solid build quality... even if the mechanicals aren't up there with Japanese cars

Allow me to expand on NRG's thoughts. I would say that when it comes to the fundamental mechanics of the car, German cars are literally very solid. They are usually built like tanks, even the low end VW's. The low end Japanese cars seem to be obsessed with materials reduction and light weight. German drivetrains are usually very robust. IMO, it's always "the little things" that break on German cars... mostly electrical things like power windows and electronic gizmos that some cars are loaded with. But the basic mechanicals are usually solid.

One of the reasons for the increased reliability problems with German cars is the higher feature and luxury content often centered around power everything and computerized gizmos. The BMW 7-series, for example, for all of its computerized electronics with iDrive and various other systems, has the stability of a desktop computer running XP -- that is to say, every now and then, it will freak out and you'll have to "reboot". The Mercedes S-class wasn't as bad IIRC with its COMAND system either. I would say, however, if you are looking at something in the Jetta class, it won't be packed to the gills with (IMO) useless computerized gadgetry that increases the potential for problems.

And let's keep in mind that when we're talking about problems, we're talking about occurence rates of something like 5% in German cars vs. 4% in Japanese cars. The new 7-series' problems are fairly rare due to tne enormous amount of computerization they used for the first time, and the lack of testing and debugging that accompanied it. So when I say less reliable, we're not talking continuous headaches like British and Italian cars here... just not as reliable as the Japanese... and yet better reliability than American cars.

 

[Buck]

...it's always "the little things" that break on German cars... mostly electrical things...

Indeed! That is one of the most frustrating things about new German cars. They've had the most mundane electrical problems since about the mid-80's. Usually it is a problem with dash warning lights coming on and going off at will and brake lights going out. Those are minor electrical components that were rock solid in the 60s and 70s, why are they a problem now!?!

 

[e_dawg]

Plus, like Tim, I'm tall (6'1") with inordinately long legs and I need a seemingly unusual amount of room for my quads. I sat in an MX-6 about two years ago (dunno the vehicle year though) and there was just not enough space. I also sat in a Sebring and RX-7 with the same result.

I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that the 6 is a cramped vehicle... It is certainly not. It is in the midsize family sedan class just like the Camry, Accord, Altima, Malibu, etc. The back seat was said to be a bit tight by the car mags, but you never sit in the back seat, do you? I don't think you should rule out a car until you have sat in the car (and driven it).

 

[e_dawg]

Those are minor electrical components that were rock solid in the 60s and 70s, why are they a problem now!?!

IMO, it has to do two things: (1) the switch from basic components to advanced computerized electronic gizmos, and (2) inadequate TQM/CI at German firms. They are not doing the necessary supplier qualification that the Japanese firms do, nor do not have the same commitment to TQM/CI at all levels of production, manufacturing, and design. Similarly, their suppliers fall short in TQM as well. Siemens, Bosch, Hella, Sachs-Boge, and company all have to take blame here, for they are the ones who make the actual components that go into these cars. You could say that the German car companies don't have to buy these inferior quality parts, but it's easier said than done.

 

[Buck]

True. The real killer was when the M-Class Mercedes came out (and still to this day), they have a poor rating on electrical components from Consumers Report, but those blasted vehicles are made in Alabama! This is not to circumvent the issue, just an ironic note. The autos coming out of Germany have electrical issues as well, just not as bad. They can build a 604 horsepower rocket but one brake light doesn't work! Pfft.

 

[Howell]

I don't think you should rule out a car until you have sat in the car (and driven it).

I didn't mean to imply that I had ruled it out. Just talkin' is all. Actually, I've sat in a Passat I think and I was surprised to find it had enough room. And I like the look of the VWs. If I had to go buy a car today it would probably be a BMW 325/23 or maybe 318. If I was concerned about the reliability issues I'd go with a VW.

I haven't even started looking yet but I've also been considering in the back of the mind a hybrid. I only drove 10,000 miles last year mostly under 30MPH. Gotta do some research first though.

I compare G and J cars by my own contrived measure called "rattle factor". It just seems like J cars develop annoying rattles in places that are impossible to find and fix. If you can live with the rattles the cars will last for ever though.

I'd love to get something reliable, utilitarian and cheap now and in a couple years get a new BMW 6-series for my fun. We can dream.

 

[Howell]

The first car I ever really wanted was a Scirocco 16V.

 

[honold]

[I'd love to get something reliable, utilitarian and cheap now and in a couple years get a new BMW 6-series for my fun. We can dream.

i'd still take an m3 or an m5 over that...

 

[Handruin]

I agree. I'm all for the M3 or M5.

 

[Howell]

I agree. I'm all for the M3 or M5.

FWIW, there will be an M6.

 

[Handruin]

M6....mmmmm. They used to have an M6.

The last time BMW built an M6 was back in 1989, and during its six-odd years on sale, only 5,855 units were built, making it quite the collectors car, even today

Linky

 

[mubs]

As Southern Californians (like Buck) know, you're a dead duck here if you ain't got no car; public transportation is not even a joke. Looks like there's more than two of us in the same boat. My LE V6 Camry, purchased new in 1994, is getting long in the tooth. 160k miles. In August, I spent ~$3k on engine work (leaking oil pan, etc.) In the last two days I drove up to Sacramento and back, often cruising steadily at ~100 MPH (Mercutio: this is true. The 5 Fwy between here and there is mostly deserted). Runs pretty well. Then on the way back, something went off with a bang in my door; turns out to be the power window stuff. Won't go up, and comes down on it's own. I had to grab it between my fingers and yank it up. I guess it's going to be ~$200 to fix. I don't care right now if they can just fix it to stay in the up position; problem is the window comes down on its own, even when parked.

I read about a Mercedes owner in Washington State that would commute 240 miles every day (into Canada and back); he put a million miles on it, and a dealer gave him a new Mercedes in exchange for the old one, which went on display.

And there was that Reader's Digest article about a couple of guys driving in Africa (circa 1960) in their Citroen; ran out of oil, they had none on hand and no service stations for a couple of hundred miles. They peeled a lot of bananas and used that as lubricant and got to their destination.