How to convey an idea

[ddrueding]

So how do you pickup women at Malls? You just walk up to them and start talking to them, you'd have to have a ton of self-confidence to do that. And the slightest amount of nervousness will do you in, some will think you're desparate or creepy. Gyms, Spas, health clubs? Well you DD, maybe in your shape could pull it off. Yeah I know people of less than stellar bodies are at those places but most who are less than idea are there because they are very self-conscious about their looks and don't feel good about their bodies... ie. the worst place to 'pickup' women.

Sheeesh, even the ones I know who look better than DD's old g/f have insecurity issues, don't think they have really nice bodies, if they are even tiny bit of flabiness, or a few pounds extra over their ideal weights. Then they claim they are not *that* concerned about their physical appearance, but in fact they always want to look their best and are insecure about not looking their absolute best... ie. neurotic. Only really hot looking guys (who obviously don't think these neurotic women are in anyway 'fat' because they're minimally less than ideal) can stroke their ego's enough, telling them they look great (were as lesser guys telling them the same thing...they don't feel that its the same kind of compliment) for them to feel OK with themselves. yeah, so you need to be very impressive in someway to hold their attention, otherwise they're just looking for someone else and hardly notice you...ever see the HBO series Sex In the City?

You can respect yourself all you want, that is so little of the equation, almost the last little part, of impressing women enough to pay attention to you, IME. Working out, equates to respect for yourself, I hardly think so. Working out just means you're out of shape, or wanting to get into better shape because you don't think you look good (which can lead to the impression of you being insecure about your looks, ie. the opposite impression of 'respecting' yourself...just look at what jtr says about his extra weight, which isn't that much, or like me). I don't like my extra 30-40lbs from my weight of my early 20's, but it doesn't bother me that much, even if I can fit into pants/clothes I used to wear. But it looks worse to women, when they've goot a pool of guys to choose from who don't have that weight, who do have more impressive jobs/status/more interesting lives, participate in social attivities. I ain't easy to be impressive to lots of women, who just compare you to others, rather than being content to take the time to find out if they really like you or not.

I'm with Merc, I give up.

You're missing an important part. You don't have to select them, they select you, too. It makes no difference that 90% of the women there aren't interested, it wouldn't work with them anyway. But by putting yourself out there and being visible, people have the opportunity to select you.

 

[jtr1962]

You're missing an important part. You don't have to select them, they select you, too. It makes no difference that 90% of the women there aren't interested, it wouldn't work with them anyway. But by putting yourself out there and being visible, people have the opportunity to select you.

Except that putting yourself out there doesn't necessarily work if neither you nor the girl can summon up the courage to make the first move. Given that I live in the largest, most densely populated city in the country you would think it would be fairly easy to at least meet potential partners. This might be true except that making the first move is socially unacceptable in many situations. I put myself "out there" almost every day whenever I go for walks, cycle, or take the train. When I worked out of the house and rode the trains every day I was literally in front of thousands of potential partners every single week. I even received some glances indicating interest. However, this is a situation where it's just not socially acceptable for whatever reason to initiate contact. Ditto for someone you see on the street. Maybe once or twice a girl on the subway actually summoned up the courage to ask me for the time or something as a prelude to engaging in conversation. I honestly couldn't think of any small talk to continue beyond answering them. It's a pity because I'm far more likely to find compatible potential partners riding the subway than I am at a club, a bar, a gym, or any other situation where it's considered socially acceptable to initiate contact. Besides, I don't feel comfortable going to any of these places. I just don't want any part of the dating game. I'd rather meet someone informally, hit it off, and then let it lead wherever it goes. I hope in time it becomes socially acceptable to initiate contact to people you see walking, riding trains, etc. I would probably get enough people to initiate contact if that were the case.

I'll also admit to never dating at all. My one and only true love I met while traveling home on the train through a mutual friend. Our loosely associated group of 15 to 30 people rode together from school on the subway. After I got off the train me and her took the same bus home (she got off a few stops before me). We hit it off right away as friends. It took longer for more to develop (my fault mostly since I was too blind to see it at the time, being busy pursuing someone else who was wrong for me anyway). Anyway, this is how I'm used to meeting potential partners-as friends first. And I can't make the first move. I'm just not capable of it. The dating game where you're expecting the person to either be the love of your life or nothing just seems weird to me. And I'm with Merc and udaman at this point. I just give up. I really do.

 

[udaman]

You're missing an important part. You don't have to select them, they select you, too. It makes no difference that 90% of the women there aren't interested, it wouldn't work with them anyway. But by putting yourself out there and being visible, people have the opportunity to select you.

No I think you're missing the most important part, it sucks to be like a guy on the catwalk of a fashion show, being judged for your impressiveness level. I'm not a glutton for punishment, and I don't want to be in the 'competiton' for who's the best guy who can impress women. I'd rather not they 'select me'. I'd rather just find out how I like their personality, find out if they have mutual interests, and see if I can enjoy them for that mutual interest and complimentary personalities. I'm not looking for someone just like me, I'd rather find differences more interesting, but I'm not wanting to be 'selected'. 90%, that's dismal. I doubt DD is failing 90% time anyway, or he'd get depressed himself. I give up if I have to go through that many failures, lack of interest. I just don't have the stamina of either mind, body...or financial reserves to do tons of dating (or at least I don't want to spend money on dates, meals that way).

Yes, I'll agree you have to put yourself out there, at least put your self in more situations where you come into contact with women, it's just where and how do you make those contacts and not be in a judging contest to see which guy wins the award for impressing a female that has plenty of contestants to judge from.

I don't look at women that way at all, but this is how men are generally judged (recall SC thread on SR B&G about being a giggilo, and how he has his boat and 3 figure income and BMW M5...he doesn't need to have a great personality).

 

[ddrueding]

No I think you're missing the most important part, it sucks to be like a guy on the catwalk of a fashion show, being judged for your impressiveness level. I'm not a glutton for punishment, and I don't want to be in the 'competiton' for who's the best guy who can impress women. I'd rather not they select me.

So you're putting up a double standard. Someone needs to make themselves visible to be seen by others, and you refuse to do it, putting the burden solely on them. Don't you think that people you are interested in (and would be interested in you) are also not willing to put themselves out there to be judged?

So you have a stalemate. Either someone has the guts to go a little out of character to see whats out there, or everyone (male and female) stay at home wondering why there isn't anyone for them.

90%, that's dismal. I doubt DD is failing 90% time anyway, or he'd get depressed himself. I give up if I have to go through that many failures, lack of interest. I just don't have the stamina of either mind, body...or financial reserves to do tons of dating (or at least I don't want to spend money on dates, meals that way).

To be honest, that's kind of optimistic. Look at it this way:

In a dance class there are 40 people, 30 of them are women. You may be interested in 5 of them upon first inspection. After building up the nerve, you manage have a small talk (a minute or two?) with 3 of them. After this, a lack of intelligence/personality causes you to eliminate 2 (or all 3). I'd say there is about a 60% chance that they aren't in a relationship and a 30% chance that they are interested in hanging out with you. Keep in mind this is a social setting where 1-on-1 interactions and physical contact is mandatory; possibly the most fertile dating scene on earth! And you still have a ~20% chance of seeing one person one more time.

A dance class of the type I teach/take is about 4 hours long. The reason I meet people is because I do 3-5 of these a week, every week. And I am actively trying to be social the whole time.

Getting someone and keeping them is the most demanding and time consuming endeavor ever. I do it because I feel being in a rewarding relationship with someone special is the most important thing I could do with my life. If you don't feel this way, don't bother. If you do feel this way, what the fuck are you doing all that other stuff for?

 

[Sol]

I'm kind of in the same boat I just don't really know where to start in the dating game... I don't really see any way of walking into a bar, nightclub, or anywhere for that matter and being able to pick out from a crowd someone that I might have something in common with.

The truth is I don't have much in common with very many people at all and least of all with people who go out dancing or get involved in most of the other social activities where people traditionally meet. To me a Bar is just a noisy place to go when you want to pay too much to get drunk.

ddruedings theory about putting yourself out there isn't necessarily a bad one but generally the only people who make it plain that they choose me are 10 years older than me or gay guys (and yes that does kind of disturb me).
Of course there are probably people who are interested and just don't make it plain enough for me to pick up, I'm not exactly great at that, and I'd probably even blame them for not being more clear if I could ever really work up the guts to be a little less subtle myself. But when you have no idea of how much of a fool you might be making of yourself and you don't know weather you even have anything in common with the other person it's kind of hard to take a risk... Or it is for me anyway...

I think there is also definitely some validity to udaman's points about impressing women. I like to think my most impressive features are my intelligence and wit. I can't dance, physically I don't really stand out from a crowd in either a good or bad way. My personality can be kind of abrasive at first meeting, and generally people have to be around me for a couple of hours before they actually start to like me. It's just not a good mix for making a good, fast, first impression in an informal situation. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this problem.

 

[Chewy509]

I agree with DD 110%, you need to make yourself available... otherwise you won't meet anyone...

Sol, I'm a terrible dancer, I can dance the Waltz and other more formal ball-room style, but modern dance leaves me, well, with 2 left feet. I'm not a fan of dance music either, which probably doesn't help.

And I also agree with Udaman, 99% of all woman out there have an issue with self image, mainly derived from media and external pressures. My flatmate Emma, while quite thin complains about her waste line, which IMHO isn't a problem. Sure she's got a small tummy, but most guys wouldn't notice, hell I didn't notice until she pointed it out. And as Udaman points out, dating is $$$. Flowers, dinner, wine, etc. A guy I knew once worked out, it would be cheaper to date a hooker once a week, than to date a girl (based on a 12month period). Scary.

As for picking up at the Mall, it's never happened to me... cafe's yes, but not the mall.

As a side note: What is love? Well depending on who you speak to, at the most fundamental level, it's a chemical addiction within the brain to a peptide which is released by numerous hormone glands within the body during certain external stimuli as well as an addiction to dopamine. Or something like that...

 

[Mercutio]

I don't think we need to start a contest over who is the most socially awkward person on SF, Sol...

Obviously there is a thing that works for ddrueding. To me it seems like it's a superficial sort of method. I don't think it translates for those of us whose superficial qualities are not immediately appealing. If I approached a woman at a mall or even a bookstore, I'm completely positive that it'd be seen as creepy and unwanted attention, just based on how I look and my mannerisms. I imagine that Sol or jtr would have similar difficulties where Chewy and ddrueding wouldn't.

Something else I understand is that guys who are successful in meeting women tend to develop - whether they know it or not - a line of patter that's often called Neuro-Linguistic Programming or more popularly "The Game". I very strongly suspect that "regular" guys who manage to meet women pretty much everywhere (as opposed to guys who use $20 bills to light their cigars) have internalized some portion of this technique.

One of the funny thing about attractive guys is... they know it, and they use it CONSTANTLY. Moreso and more shamelessly than pretty girls do. I didn't realize that until the gay women I know pointed it out to me, but if a guy is even kind-of above average in the looks department, he flirts with everything that isn't obviously male.

The funny side effect of that is that almost everything female at one time or another, no matter how much of a swamp donkey she might be, has had some male model-type flirt with her.

On the other hand, women are usually conscious of their looks and mannerisms, and tend to be more sparing of their flirtations, even the super-hot chick whose pouty-face gets her every single thing she could ever want.

The end result of that, in the social theory espoused by one of my friends, is that most women actually kinda-sorta think they have a chance when the hot guy flirts with them (after all, why would he flirt if he didn't see something he liked, the way women do?) where for the hot guy it's just part of his lifelong mannerisms. The un-hot guy - the socially awkward loser - he ends up in a state where women are basically an alien species, since even the swamp donkeys on the other side of the fence get enough validation from hot, flirty guys to keep from looking their way.

There was an SNL skit that nicely illustrates the concept.

Another idea that I am familiar with in relation to male-female relations is something called "Ladder Theory". I have no idea whether it's a worthwhile concept, but after someone brought it up I read the explanation on this site and it makes a certain amount of sense. Perhaps guys like jtr or udaman or me just end up on the wrong ladder.

Hm. Anyway, I thought I'd interject these ideas into this discussion. It certainly does seem like the odds are stacked against many of us, and guys like David trying to explain it like it's falling off a log simply doesn't match the reality the rest of us live in.

 

[Mercutio]

I also just found this which is quite interesting in its accuracy regarding my personality.

 

[LOST6200]

I don't think we need to start a contest over who is the most socially awkward person on SF, Sol...

Yeahm well that be me, the biggest loser...

 

[Chewy509]

Something else I understand is that guys who are successful in meeting women tend to develop - whether they know it or not - a line of patter that's often called Neuro-Linguistic Programming or more popularly "The Game". I very strongly suspect that "regular" guys who manage to meet women pretty much everywhere (as opposed to guys who use $20 bills to light their cigars) have internalized some portion of this technique.

The Game is a very good book, (yes I own a copy), and while it's more of a story than a how-to book, it does raise some interesting points about male/female interaction.

The problem with many guys, is that they lack depth of character (which Merc I sure you have plenty of) and while the 'peacock' effect will draw in the women, it's also the one effect that prohibits a long lasting relationship. Once the shininess of the lure is gone, most women realise that they've been played...

A trick I picked up once for working a nightclub or pub, was look for the girl not flirting, not looking at the guys, but huddled in a corner surrounded by friends and looking awkward. (Hint: Check for a ring). She is most likely just a shy as you are. When she goes up to the bar, follow her up (don't make it look obvious), stand next to her, smile and stay hello. If she responds in any positive (or neutral) manner, ask her what she's having and order it for her, the trick don't ask if she wants a drink, just buy it for her. Worst case, you get to try a drink that you normally wouldn't have. Best case, you chat... If buying her a drink is out, then insist that she gets served before you do... To do this, get the attention of the person behind the bar, quickest way, flash money, bigger the better. Once you have their attention, have the bar person serve her before you... Once she's just finished her order, but not received her drinks or paid, place your order. It'll create a connection between the 2 of you, look at her and smile. 9/10 times she'll respond positively.

** The peacock effect, is a technique that makes you stand out from the crowd, eg wearing something outrageous at a club, eg a bright purple fluffy top hat, or a safari suit and claiming you just got back from a 'hunt'... Yes women fall for that shit.

Now a technique for the less inhibited. As you're walking through a Mall or other large public place, walk with a upbeat step and smile. Make eye contact with others and smile, most will smile back or say hello, and always and I mean always respond with a hello and a wave... Do this for a day, will boost anyone's confidence in interpersonal first contacts!

 

[e_dawg]

Hmm... how can I contribute to this discussion? I've had dating success the past couple years, but it hasn't always been that way. It was pretty hopeless at times with many years without success, and believe me, I had the same "screw it, why bother, it's not going to work because of x, y, and z, and because women are like this and don't like that... it's not up to me... anybody remotely attractive has their pick and why would they pick me?" attitude.

I worked hard at turning things around, and am proud of my success. If you would humour me for a bit, allow me to share some things that helped me. YMMV (but honestly, this stuff is applicable to and can help so many people... even if you only find 5% of this useful, it is something you'll take with you and use it for life and could make the difference... try it)

1. Self-help books on anxiety & depression. A lot of us who have dating problems often suffer from certain elements of anxiety & depression. It's usually a mild anxiety condition that causes a lack of social success, which leads to mild depression (dysthymia), avoidance of social activities, which over time, causes a relative lack of social / dating skills development, resulting in more anxiety in social / dating situations, starting a vicious circle.

Often, these problems are not full-blown anxiety conditions like social phobia or social anxiety, but they can be subtle manifestations of Cluster C personality disorders like OCPD (not to be confused with OCD), Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD), or DPD.

The first step to social / dating success (and success in general) is addressing these mild manifestations of anxiety / depression that are not only holding you back, but affecting your perspective / objectivity and ability to evaluate priorities in life (e.g., i'd rather be working because it is so important in many ways to my career, financial security, ability to purchase electronic toys; dating is so futile and i'm really much happier alone... why suffer so much to get probably so little in return?).

Some good books:

Feeling Good by David Burns - One of the original books that brought the concepts of CBT to mainstream psychology

Self-Coaching by Joseph Luciani - Possibly the best, most concise and practical single book on giving you the tools to overcome life's challenges.

2. Improve your social / dating skills. Most of us are the same. We don't like doing things that make us uncomfortable. We feel like a fish out of water. Usually that happens with public speaking, dancing, and dating. Why? Because there are lots of intricacies to these activities that are (1) subtle, (2) can't be mastered easily, and (3) can't be learned without enduring some fear and potential embarrassment.

Fortunately, this is just like learning a new programming language. All it takes is a book and a commitment to try things out. What I mean by that is reading to learn the basics, and then writing code and seeing what happens when you hit "compile". You can't learn a new language without just writing and compiling and seeing what happens, and more importantly, what didn't work, why it didn't work, and what you should try next time.

Books on Communication Skills

Conversationally Speaking by Alan Garner
How to Talk to Anyone by Leil Lowndes

Books on Dating Skills

Double Your Dating by David DeAngelo (eBook)
Undercover Sex Signals by Leil Lowndes
AskMen.com website, Dating & Love section

Again, the key is to practice. Seriously, sign-up for speed-dating events around your area. No strings, safe, friendly environment, nothing to be embarrassed about since everybody is there for the same reason you are. You can practice on dozens of women in a matter of hours. Then, practice at the mall, grocery store, subway / bus, elevator, anywhere you walk by or stand next to a woman where she isn't in a hurry to get somewhere.

The key is not to hesitate. Use the 3 second rule. Within 3 seconds of approaching a woman, make eye contact, smile, and say "hi". It doesn't matter what you say next. Just comment on the weather or whatever's close by (e.g., ask "hey, any tips on how to pick asparagus?") and smile a bit. That's all there is to it. Once you do it a dozen times or so, I promise you it becomes easy enough to the point where you won't feel afraid of it anymore. You may regress and not want to do it a week later, but you'll know that you can do it, and that's the first step. The next step is to actually do it every week so that you keep up your progress.

3. Boost your Confidence / Resilience. As you know, it's all about confidence. Women can smell fear a mile away. I know what you're thinking: it's not like you're not confident in other areas of your life (don't you think you know more about computers and electronics than 99% of people in the country?), but dating is just so darn hard and so full of rejection. But confidence can be learned. And doing so will not only instantly make you 100x more attractive, but it will help you with so many other areas of your life.

Some great books:

Feel the Fear... and Beyond by Susan Jeffers
The Resilience Factor by Karen Reivich

4. See a counselor / therapist. This is probably the most effective and helpful of all of these suggestions. If you feel self-conscious about going to see a therapist, get over it. You have some things you need help with working out. There is no shame in that. Just like you would go see a doctor for a health problem, you should see a therapist or a psychiatrist for anything regarding thoughts, emotions, anxiety, depression, and personality disorders.

For a psychologist, you can often see them without any referral. Some of them are GP's (who can prescribe medications like SSRI's, which work very well might I add), and some of them are family / personal / employee counselors. Sometimes, employee and family assistance counselors are the best choice because they either come to your workplace or are local and are covered by your employer's benefits program.

There are psychotherapists, licensed clinical social workers (LCSW), and licensed clinical professional counselors (LCPC)

http://www.findcounseling.com/

5. Consider taking some St. John's Wort. Or some medication like an SSRI. St. John's Wort works for mild depression and can help get you out of your funk so that you'll actually WANT to do what it takes to improve yourself. It does take up to 3-4 weeks before you actually feel the effects, so stick with it, but chances are you'll notice a gradual improvement after 2 weeks. The side effects are usually very mild, but just make sure you follow the precautions and warnings on the label. St. John's Wort is also a mild MAO Inhibitor, and you should thus not use if you're on MAOIs, SSRIs/SNRIs, tricylic antidepressants, drugs for Parkinson's disease. Be careful not to eat too much cheese and wine as well.

An SSRI like Prozac can help with many of the anxiety and depression conditions as well. You wouldn't believe how well it works until you try it.

--------------

One thing to remember is that you have to put in the time and effort to make it happen. And that includes, reading 2-3 books and taking a couple hours off work every couple weeks to see a therapist / counselor. Don't be lazy and don't bullshit yourself by putting in 50% effort, claiming "i'm too busy with work, or i'm too tired after work" and then claiming that it's never going to work.

Work on fixing yourself, addressing your skill defecits, and I promise you will see the results of your labour. Maybe not instant success, but you will definitely see progress. Not just with dating, but in all aspects of your life.

Sorry if this sounds a little preachy to you, but I strongly believe in it. It's worked for me, and I know it will work for you. Believe it or not, there are people out there that are "your type" and who will not only like you and find you attractive enough to go out with you on a date, but will fall in love with you and think "you're the one". And it's not just that one person in the whole world -- there are many people out there. All you need is a "close enough" match and two willing partners.

 

[Tannin]

Look, this is going to sound flippant, but I'm quite serious. Here is a 100% sure-fire way to improve the entire dating experience.

Don't.

For me, dating was always a bit of an ordeal. Sometimes a nervous-making, uncomfortable, what's-everybody-going-to-think-of-me sort of experience, sometimes a full-on, demanding yet rewarding focus on getting into another person's head sort of thing (think about it - meeting someone new and getting to know them, really know them, is hard work, not unlike talking in a foreign language for hours on end - you have to concentrate, think hard, learn new ways of seeing the world), and sometimes (perhaps most often of all) terribly tedious - that whole bars and going out and eating in flash joints and making civilised conversation with the SO's social reference group, it bored me to frustration 95% of the time.

Sure, there were compensations, sometimes extraordinarily worthwhile ones, but when I look back on 20-odd years worth of relationships large and small from the perspective far enough away to be able to see the whole thing, not just the most recent and most immediate parts of it .... well, I pretty much wasted 20 good years.

You've heard the saying "life begins at 40"? It's true enough. I look back on what I've achieved in the last ~5 years compared to the vast number of things I didn't achieve in the previous ~20 years, and at how rewarding that time has been, and at how I feel when I get out of bed each day .... it's better in every way.

What's different?

I stopped dating, I stopped watching television, and I stopped being polite to telephone company reps.

Life is good.

 

[Mercutio]

e_dawg, I can say conclusively after years of trying therapy and varying doses of a half-dozen antidepressants that they amount in total to a complete waste of time and money. The amount of time it takes to put a pill in my mouth was wasted. I might as well swallow a pebble as take a Paxil. If it wasn't for the side effects I wouldn't think they did anything at all.

 

[Tea]

They do have an effect. They make your poo go lumpy.

 

[Tea]

Pebbles, that is.

 

[Mercutio]

Thank you Tea for that wonderful mental image. You need to stop taking those dares DrunkenBastard makes...

Also, Summing up frustration.

 

[Chewy509]

e_dawg, thanks for the post...

 

[Handruin]

e_dawg, I can say conclusively after years of trying therapy and varying doses of a half-dozen antidepressants that they amount in total to a complete waste of time and money. The amount of time it takes to put a pill in my mouth was wasted. I might as well swallow a pebble as take a Paxil. If it wasn't for the side effects I wouldn't think they did anything at all.

I know you're going to hate me for mentioning this again...but if you feel you've wasted time with pills, why not try physical exercise? It's possibly cheaper and likely more affective. Even if you feel you've wasted time, you'll likely to lose a few pounds and possibly feel better in general.

 

[e_dawg]

Merc,

I have a couple comments here...

Not sure which drugs you've tried, but there are many options available, and a lot of different combinations. You mention Paxil, for example, but it has been superceded by Lexapro as the "go-to" SSRI in terms of potency. On top of that, you can add Wellbutrin to address norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake.

Having said that, antidepressants are only tools that can help facilitate therapy. It is up to the individual to "heal themselves" with the guidance of their therapist. Meds can give you a bit of a boost and encouragement, but the patient has to do the hard work. The patient has to want to get better. If he/she wants to wallow in self-pity and despair, no amount of medication or therapy is going to change that.

 

[Mercutio]

I've been on, at different times, Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac and Celexa, mostly for periods of between two months and nine months. All those are SSRI inhibitors and doctors hand sample boxes of them out like candy. I've also been on Wellbutrin before, which has by far the most obnoxious set of side effects I experienced and I was not on it long enough to receive any supposed therapeutic benefit.

Between the costs of the placebo - I mean "medication" and the time and costs for "therapy" (which seems to be an excuse for Dr. So and So to shoehorn you into his personal pet neurosis and/or treatment), I found something between no and zero benefit. I was not able to find any additional point of view that I had not considered, nor any relevant introspection during the I time I was in therapy. I also found that, after preparing a very long document describing my personal history, that therapists would be unwilling or unable to recall major personal details (e.g. I have two brothers, my parents are still married - that's not difficult material!) that were contained in said document... even when I would pay for a session just so they would take the time to read it.

e_dawg, I spent several years and many thousands of dollars trying to deal with depression the way I am "supposed" to. It's not like I don't have a valid reason to be angry about the whole bullshit process. Psychiatrists, Psychologists and Clinical Social Workers don't give refunds, nor do pharmacies.


Handruin, rather than replying to you in any more detail, just go back and read what I wrote at the beginning of the thread about exercise, and keep reading it until you stop having the urge to bring it up.

 

[LOST6200]

You've heard the saying "life begins at 40"? It's true enough. I look back on what I've achieved in the last ~5 years compared to the vast number of things I didn't achieve in the previous ~20 years, and at how rewarding that time has been, and at how I feel when I get out of bed each day .... it's better in every way.

What's different?

I stopped dating, I stopped watching television, and I stopped being polite to telephone company reps.

Life is good.

Gooo for you. But I;m not sure of the corelation to maturity. Fro exmple, my life has steadily decline after 40 and I dont; do any of those things either. Life sucks, perood. When older it suck a higher percentage of the time, threare body in pains much more often, but erasl feelings are less intense too. Noboyd ecver said that life would be fun or easly, just survivo anyway. There is no need for the absoluto negative conviction like Mercutio, either.

B

 

[Mercutio]

To relate to Chewy's experience, rather than my own sub-rant: A scientific study of personals profile fibbing.

 

[LOST6200]

Yes, well many people are liars. Nothign new, certyainly peopll did this back in the oldn days when impersonnael communication was by letter.

B

 

[Chewy509]

To relate to Chewy's experience, rather than my own sub-rant: A scientific study of personals profile fibbing.

Hi Merc,

Thanks for the link, and it certainly rings very true with my personal experience.

Here are some personal stats (based on 6 months):
Number of online dating sites - 3.
Initial signs of interests - roughly 50.
More than 3 emails of correspondence - 8.
Actual meet in person - 3.
More than 3 dates - 1.
Current in contact (via email) - 3.
Current in contact (via email/phone/in person) - 1.

Odds on meeting a life-time partner friend, pretty low...

 

[e_dawg]

Well Merc, I guess I didn't give you enough credit for spending all the time, effort, and money to address your personal challenges. Kudos to you for giving it an honest try -- after all, that's the least one can do.

On one hand, I am a little puzzled and frustrated that nothing really helped, but I do know how difficult a beast anxiety and depression can be. I have been through it, and so have people close to me. Granted, I was lucky and had relatively manageable things to deal with, but I know that many find improvement extremely hard to come by. There are things I am still struggling with myself and will for years to come. All I hope for is a little bit of progress here and there.

 

[ddrueding]

Yep Merc, I agree with e_dawg. Our first assumptions that you (like so many) simply hadn't tried seems to have been an underestimation of you; sorry about that.

And while encouraging you to date may also be out of reach; I still feel obliged to encourage you to find some activity that you find rewarding. Any thoughts?

 

[Tannin]

Scientist shocked that people lie on dating sites

A BOFFIN writing for Scientific American has come up with the staggering news that people tell porkies when they write their profiles for online dating agencies.

Robert Epstein said that more than 90 per cent of online daters lie about something in their profiles. He points to research from Michigan State University which shows that the shorter and heavier people tend to tell bigger lies about themselves.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37380

.

 

[LOST6200]

Im gladd that someone else bopils it down to the obvious. Good greif!

 

[Chewy509]

glad you *think* you're luckier with K.

F&*k, Udaman, are you a psychic? She just gave me the, 'sorry, I'm busy for the next few weeks, but I do want to catch up, I'll call next week' routine...

The thing is, I don't know if it was me that she's not interested in, or if she's meet someone new, or in fact she is telling the truth but I'm sure it's highly unlikely that it's the latter...

I'm starting to get the 'I hate dating and all the games' syndrome... I guess I just need to go and get drunk again, like last Sat night.

 

[e_dawg]

Nah, what you need is to have multiple targets, so to speak. You know what they say about putting all your eggs in one basket, right? When you're in that "looking for someone" stage, you really need to look for 2-3 at the same time (which you started to do, but now that L is out of the picture, ask someone else out). Usually, 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 people you ask out will lose interest in you past a couple dates. They may string you along a bit because they're not sure you're a total dud yet, but you're definitely not their first choice. If somebody with more potential comes along, you get the old "I'll be busy for the next couple weeks" line. If you're asking 3 girls out, you won't have all your hopes hanging on that one girl who went out on a relatively decent first date with you and you'll still probably have 1 girl who will go out with you on a second or third date. It's like they say -- it really is a numbers game.

Now, if you've gotten past 4-5 dates with someone and things have been progressing, looking like a relationship could take flight, then out of respect for her, you should put all of your eggs in her basket, so to speak. But not when you've only had a couple dates and aren't sure if she's going to put you on the back burner the minute someone else asks her out.

 

[e_dawg]

Now, if you've gotten past 4-5 dates with someone and things have been progressing, looking like a relationship could take flight

This is an important sentence in several ways, so i thought I'd highlight it. The key word here is progress. Each date should build upon the previous one, and you should be taking it to the next level. A hug good night on the first date is fine. A hug good night on the third date is not. If you haven't at least kissed her good night by the 3rd or 4th date and started holding hands, you're not progressing. ... Which brings me to my next point. As a man, it is your responsibility to keep taking things to the next level and maintaining progress from date to date. If you're not comfortable with how to do that (when should I make my move? how do I make my move?), check out Double Your Dating and Bridges.

 

[Chewy509]

Nah, what you need is to have multiple targets, so to speak. You know what they say about putting all your eggs in one basket, right? When you're in that "looking for someone" stage, you really need to look for 2-3 at the same time (which you started to do, but now that L is out of the picture, ask someone else out).

Funny you mention that, because I am actually speaking to 2 others at the moment... One of which I'm meeting for dinner on Sat night, just literally confirmed 30mins ago. The other, I think is or has just lost interest... But one of my flat mates trying to set me up with one of her friends as well... So that's 1 on the go at the moment, with a setup in the immediate future.

So not all is lost. It just pisses me off, that most won't even let you know they've lost interest, you just don't hear from them again...

 

[udaman]

F&*k, Udaman, are you a psychic? She just gave me the, 'sorry, I'm busy for the next few weeks, but I do want to catch up, I'll call next week' routine...

The thing is, I don't know if it was me that she's not interested in, or if she's meet someone new, or in fact she is telling the truth but I'm sure it's highly unlikely that it's the latter...

I'm starting to get the 'I hate dating and all the games' syndrome... I guess I just need to go and get drunk again, like last Sat night.

LMAO, no, just been there done that too many times...including getting drunk arse last weekend, and this weekend (though I had a knock out brawl over very intense angry verbal vollies with my friend, the d**khead whom I make wine with...that's a whole 2 pgs of rants in itself...I'll spare you). Oh no, I don't want to mention my current 'female' troubles...just too depressing ^^^ see her profile pix back up in the thread .

Now I'm going to go out on the line and say e_dawg is almost as much of a dawg as say FS or SC on SR, I don't believe in any of that stuff in his current posts above. Who says when you're supposed to hug, kiss, fondle or f**k? There are no rules, and if I meet some chick that ascribes to that mundane routine of human sexuality 101, I'm already losing interest in her due to the lower level line of intellect...sorry, but that's how I feel. People are far too varied in personalities such that you or I should pigeon hole everyone into 'accepted' behavior. If she was the love of your life, and she was just a bit more insecure or shy, then why should you 'make the 1st move'. And this whole notion of stereotypical "be a man BS" you must make all the moves, if some chick wants to jump my bones (say. Ms Aqua GUI, even if she did put on 10lbs or so since a few years ago when she was insanely hot, taught but still feminine soft) I'm not going to argue if she wants to get on top....sheesh! Where the f**k did this rule of 1, 2, 3-5 dates come from, may I ask? I think it's all BS.

I will however subscribe to what DD said about Merc and everyone doing something to get out there. You either use the questionalble online approach, or get out in the community where you live. I would say, it's possible to meet people, even if not date material, but doing something out in the community. It doesn't have to be the 'date' prone venues DD speaks of. It could be something like doing volunteer work, a consulting job; just something where you come across people. So you might end up becoming friends with people or women, before you end up dating them. Or in Chewy's case, join up with outdoor / sporting groups where it is either a singles only (if you don't mind the 'being choosen by the females' pressures) venue, or more just group activities, where even if you only become friends/make contact with more males, they might have female friends that you will somehow come into contact. But staying indoors is the worst, I'll agree you have to somehow make contact with the outside world.

 

[ddrueding]

I agree that the "hug here, kiss here" rules are too structured, but there is one hard rule that I have never seen an exception to:

If you have sex on the first date, it won't last the month as anything more than a physical-only relationship. Emotions/connection first, sex later; or...sex only. If you are already having sex, and try to establish an emotional connection, you will become frustrated and either go back to what you are good at (sex) or leave.

I'm about to combine the wisdom of Billy Crystal and Chris Rock. The former said in "When Harry Met Sally" that guys and girls can't be friends; that there will always be this 'thing' there that needs to be resolved. Chris Rock said that women think of guy friends as 'a dick in a glass case; in case of emergency, break glass'. So, when I was dating a lot, I had a lot of female friends; and occasionally some glass would get broken

PS: My GF is reading over my shoulder, and she says "you are such a dog" and "it's so true"...

 

[Tannin]

that guys and girls can't be friends; that there will always be this 'thing' there that needs to be resolved

Not sure that this is a hard and fast rule, Dave, though it's not bad as a rough sort of guideline with exceptions.

I have found that some of the most rewarding friendships are those that you form with your ex, and your ex-ex, and your ex-ex-ex. Maybe the stable relationship sort of ex, or maybe (I've had this too) the we-tried-this and it-didn't-really-happen sort of ex. Either way, maybe Billy has a point: you've broken that particular sort of ice and it's no longer something either of you think about, you just know one another very well and are relaxed together.

YMMV of course.

 

[Mercutio]

ddrueding,
BS.

I'm friends with lots of girls. Even one who isn't at all gay. It's possible. There aren't even any men I socialize with in real life. The only reason you can't make friends with a girl is that you can't stop thinking with your dick. That's it.

Granted, I can't start thinking with mine, but that's beside the point. You made a dumb blanket statement.

 

[Clocker]

Handruin, rather than replying to you in any more detail, just go back and read what I wrote at the beginning of the thread about exercise, and keep reading it until you stop having the urge to bring it up.

Friend of mine dropped 40 pounds just by switching from regular to diet coke. Granted, he drank about a 2-liter per day but it really made a big difference. No exercise required.

 

[Mercutio]

That's one of the ways I lost weight too.

 

[e_dawg]

Now I'm going to go out on the line and say e_dawg is almost as much of a dawg as say FS or SC on SR, I don't believe in any of that stuff in his current posts above. Who says when you're supposed to hug, kiss, fondle or f**k? There are no rules, and if I meet some chick that ascribes to that mundane routine of human sexuality 101, I'm already losing interest in her due to the lower level line of intellect...sorry, but that's how I feel. People are far too varied in personalities such that you or I should pigeon hole everyone into 'accepted' behavior. If she was the love of your life, and she was just a bit more insecure or shy, then why should you 'make the 1st move'. And this whole notion of stereotypical "be a man BS" you must make all the moves, if some chick wants to jump my bones (say. Ms Aqua GUI, even if she did put on 10lbs or so since a few years ago when she was insanely hot, taught but still feminine soft) I'm not going to argue if she wants to get on top....sheesh! Where the f**k did this rule of 1, 2, 3-5 dates come from, may I ask? I think it's all BS.

So tell us how you really feel! Seriously, I think you're missing the point here (or more likely, what I wrote was a little misleading).

The intent wasn't to define all these hard and fast rules and timelines to live your dating life by without reading the situation. The intent was to impress upon our friends who were a little disillusioned with the dating game that one can better set themselves up for success by (1) asking more than one person out, and (2) by being more active and progress-oriented in one's dating approach. (because sometimes, as guys, we can be too passive and/or tentative in dating / relationships, which can work against us)

Kissing by the 3rd or 4th date is an arbitrary ballpark that obviously does not apply to every couple. But the reason why I mentioned that as an example was because sometimes guys can be too tentative. To wit: one of my friends didn't have much dating success and was wondering why. He heard the "you're such a great guy, but I'm not ready for a relationship just yet" and "I really like you as a friend, and I don't want to jeopardize that by taking things further" lines time after time. He really is a great guy, so we asked him what was going on to try to diagnose the problem.

One thing stood out immediately: he was too tentative. He didn't want to make things awkward or pressure his dates, so he didn't want to kiss his date or hold hands until they were very comfortable with each other first. He said that usually means after a couple months or dozen dates or so. We immediately identified that as the potential problem: after that many dates without taking things to the next level romantically, your bond inevitably becomes platonic. After we told him this and he vowed to be less tentative, he had much more success and is currently in a great long-term relationship.

 

[jtr1962]

I have to take issue with the idea of being "too tentative". A lot of that may depend upon the individual. For someone like me I need to know a person many months and feel very comfortable with them before I would even want to hold hands, let alone kiss or do anything further. It just takes that long for the bond to develop where it feels normal to do that. It amazes me that many people can apparently develop such bonds in only a few dates of a few hours each. I would frankly be taken aback if someone I only know for what amounts to hours wanted to get physical. It would seem weird, for lack of a better word.

Because of all this, I really consider "dating" as a route to a potential partner a dead end. Things are expected to happen way too fast for my comfort zone. The only way I've fallen in love in the past has been with people I've been around for a long time as friends first. Unfortunately, because I am no longer in school I don't have the opportunity to be around people on a regular basis. Also, the schools I went to, especially high school, represented a cross section of the population among whom I was probably 1000 times more likely to find someone I liked than the general population. Even then I really only found one person who I was truly in love with.

I should mention at this point that there are very few females I find appealing enough to want to become physical with (this isn't even getting into their personalities yet). Finding 2 or 3 to date simultaneously, at least until I sized them out and I could pick one, or one picked me, would be well nigh impossible. I can probably count on both hands the number of females in my entire life to whom I was attracted enough to consider them as potential partners. I only met and knew one. The others were just random people I saw on the streets and subways which is why it would be nice if it was more socially acceptable to approach people in those places. Even then, they would need to make the first move because I'm just not capable of it. I do fine once someone breaks the ice but I've never been able to pull it off on my own. I think Merc's "creepy" and "unwanted attention" description just about sums up what would happen if I tried. So I basically have two choices at this point-either lower my standards, or accept being alone for the rest of my life. Neither is very attractive but I'll stick to the latter since I've never believed in selling yourself short. And it begs to note that I most definitely would not be dating anyone in my age group since many are likely to be divorced and/or have children. I just don't want the extra baggage that entails.