Macbook Pro first impressions

[Mercutio]

I got a bunch of Mac stuff for our classrooms, including some iMacs, a couple Airport Extremes and some Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs.

OK fine. I have appropriated one of the 17" Macbooks for whatever I want a Macbook for, which honestly isn't a whole hell of a lot. This is my first real experience as a full time user of OSX on actual Apple hardware instead of Hackintoshes.


For a company that supposedly pays a great deal of attention to human factors, I'm not overly impressed with what I'm seeing on this thing.

First thing first: Glossy screen can lick the deepest, hairiest part of my butt. It's not horrible when it's plugged in, but under the fluorescent lights of my office, it looks cheap. This is a $2800 laptop. No part of it should look cheap.

Second thing: Apple's built in pointer isn't very good. It's not the worst one I've used; that honor goes to HP's recent consumer trash. But it requires actual effort to click. Clicking is not done absently. And only the part down at the bottom can be used to click at all. The whole touchpad can't be used to click. Bogus. It's almost like they want to drive people to an external pointer.

On the plus side, the gestures for things like scrolling are quite nice. I'm still learning them, but hopefully I'll see that on my next Thinkpad.

I'm not a big fan of chiclet style keyboards. The MBP's is nicer than other chiclet keyboards I've used. It's comfortable for typing and there's a good amount of key travel. I can tell when I've hit a key.

Third thing: The speakers are surprisingly nice. That's a minor thing, but I'm not used to getting that from the business notebooks I spend most of my time using. Good on Apple for that much at least. On the other hand, unlike Windows notebooks, Apple omits the numeric keypad, so there's all kinds of room for speakers.

Fourth thing: 17" is still too goddamn big for a notebook, even if this one is unusually light. It's bulky. I know the big MBP is supposed to be all things to all people, with a fast CPU, gobs of RAM and a decent GPU (Radeon Mobility 6770, nothing to sneeze at), but this guy isn't really comfortable to use anyplace but at a table and I'd rather have something I'm more comfortable with.

OSX is OSX, and that's its usual self. I'm fine with that. It starts quickly and resumes quickly. I'm installing City of Heroes, which does have a Mac-native client, in order to check graphics performance.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Windows-based i7 laptop to compare this thing to at the moment, but this guy is my de facto work-issued laptop, so I'll probably come back to bitch about this thing more later.

 

[Sol]

There is an anti-glare version of that Macbook, it's $50 extra from the online apple store or probably about $300 extra in a brick and mortar (or chrome and glass) apple store because they bundle it with the abusively expensive 100Mhz processor bump. The anti-glare version still isn't perfect in direct light but it's a huge improvement. The annoying thing about the screen is the automatic brightness adjustment, in some lighting conditions it will cause the brightness of the screen to continually fluctuate. It's really annoying and I've noticed that sometimes updates turn it back on.

The odd clicking on the touchpad is something you get used to. Once you've managed to train yourself not to just touch the touchpad and wait for something to happen the amount of force required doesn't seem excessive and it lets you do things like very short scrolls without ambiguity. This touchpad seems like a step up from the one on the older Macbooks I've used for work though as it's no longer painfully difficult to highlight text in terminals. Either that or they've fixed the terminal application in Lion, either way it seems a lot better now.

The keyboard kind of annoys me. It's exactly the same keyboard as the 15" model with extra space for the speakers. I guess I'd appreciate that if I listened to music or something but as it is I use the keyboard a lot more than the speakers and just fell the space could have been better spent. (I've been trying to do some 3d modeling in Blender so I actually had to buy a blue tooth numeric keypad which seems pretty avoidable).

I wasn't overly impressed by the graphical grunt, I've only run a couple of games on it, and they ran fine but it was clear they were pushing what the system could do (I would have liked a few more frames) and these were not new or graphically demanding games. That said I guess it's pretty good for a laptop and I can't imagine it'll have any problems running CoH.

 

[MaxBurn]

There are raging hatred debates on Mac fora about the glossy/matte thing and as apple likes to reduce options that's one thing I think they are hesitant to pull users choice away from.

I don't like how they use the same keyboard on the bigger machines, they should take advantage of the space.

I don't have or use one but I keep hearing it said that with bootcamp or parallels you end up with a better windows machine than you can buy with windows on it.

On the touchpad I hear the verge recently got a acer ultra book and hate the touchpad on that thing, some significant back and forth with synaptics. They were referring to apples implementation of touch on their laptops as the example others should follow.

 

[Mercutio]

OK the lack of Insert and a proper Delete key is maddening.

 

[Sol]

Insert I don't use anyway, but yeah, not having delete is really annoying. I think Command + Backspace does the same thing, but that's 2 keys and you can do it in 2 keys anyway it's just... Annoying.

 

[Mercutio]

Having spent the weekend with it, battery life on the MBP is atrocious. The Mac's sleep mode seems to equate to Standby on a PC; it's essentially instant-on, but it appears that there's very little power savings as a result of using sleep.
Anyway, I can run the machine for perhaps 2:15 with the screen on full brightness while doing basic internet browsing, or perhaps 1:10 if I choose to do something that puts a load on the graphics hardware (I can run City of Heroes or a couple Popcap games). The battery meter variously claims numbers well north of four hours from a full charge. I have no idea what fairy-tale world that number is coming from.

Of course, I know battery life is going to be crappy on a 17" screen at full brightness, but Apple's battery meter and any number of Apple fans tell me something very different from that.

I did finally buy myself a Thinkpad T420 today. I'll be very interested to see how the two machines compare in terms of overall performance.

 

[time]

Indeed. But being immune to the RDF, we both already know the answer.

 

[Mercutio]

My Thinkpad T420 came in yesterday.

A few thoughts.

The MBP has a generally nicer screen. Even in spite of the gloss finish. I'd say it's a matter of comparing an exceptional screen to a very good one. The T420's screen is a big improvement over my T6x-series notebooks and looks amazing on AC power, but with the default power saving brightness settings, it's a lot less charming.

My notebook has switchable nVidia graphics. I wasn't too keen on that idea, but Lenovo offers a 1600x900 screen with the GPU and only a 1360xwhatever screen without. I took the extra pixels. At least modern notebooks shut off the GPU when it's not needed. I'm disappointed that there's no option of a 16x10 display, too. The chassis does have room for it.

I didn't look very hard, but FutureMark says the NVS4200m gets a score of 530 on its benchmark. Meh. Whatever.

The OEM RAM in my Thinkpad was Hynix, the hard drive was a WD. I replaced the RAM with 8GB Crucial DDR3 and cloned the impending failure to a 500GB Seagate Momentus Hybrid drive (which might also be an impending failure, but at least it'll be faster).

Ultimately I plan to add an Intel 310 miniPCIe SSD and move to a 1TB+ drive for raw storage, but that can wait until after the first of the year.

Pulling the keyboard to get to the second DIMM slot no longer requires removal of five screws and potentially having some difficulty re-fitting the keyboard. Now there are just two, the second one being under the bottom cover where the first DIMM and miniPCIe slot are located. It's a much easier job for techies now.

The T420 lacks an Ultrabay. Ultrabay devices still fit in the optical drive bay, but there's no external switch for easy device swapping as there has been on older models. After fiddling around with it for a bit, I pulled the DVD burner and added a second hard drive. It's not easy, but it's also not something I do very often either. Since both my bay batteries are kind of long in tooth anyway, I put the DVD drive back.

I should mention weight. With the DVD in and a 9-cell battery, the T420 weighs around 4.5lbs. It doesn't feel bulky at all.

Battery life. It's astonishing. I probably ran my laptop continuously for five hours last night without plugging in; installing software, syncing email, copying user data over wireless. After five hours, my laptop said that I still had 38% of a full charge. I can't really say how accurate the gauge is yet, but this appears to be a legitimate all day battery.

My laptop has an Intel 3x3 (450Mbps) wireless adapter. Sitting about 10m from my AP (which only has 2x2 transceivers), I was able to sustain 12 - 14MB/sec data transfers on 5GHz 802.11. I'm fairly impressed by that. The Macbook Pro only gets 3 -4 MB/sec, though it reports connections at the same data rate (usually 270Mbit).

I didn't do much to tax the CPU yet, but I did load VMware Workstation and I'll probably wind up spending some time with that in the next few days.

 

[Santilli]

Sam: Details on the T420? How did you configure it? Price? Distributor?

 

[Mercutio]

I went to Lenovo. I picked the options I wanted. I waited two weeks for it to be configured and delivered.

I normally buy -CTO machines directly from Lenovo since my configuration options are kind of idiosyncratic; wanting the cheapest drive and Windows edition and the least RAM combined with the most expensive 802.11 (but not WiMax), fastest CPU fancy discrete graphics and long full-coverage service plan (which, yes, I'd rather have for a $1500 laptop; I watch sales and buy only when the service plans are heavily discounted on top of whatever else they're offering) isn't really a common setup.

For a more typical configuration I'd probably order from Amazon.

 

[LunarMist]

Does Lenovo have any IPS or other decent displays on notebooks nowadays?

 

[Mercutio]

The ridiculously high end X220 uses a 1360x768 IPS panel. They also weigh about 2.5lbs and support full speed mobile CPUs. I thought about going with one of those, but I really wanted the extra screen resolution and ultrabay compatibility. Plus there were bigger discounts on the T-series.

 

[Handruin]

Looks like we ordered the same system. The T420 I ordered about a month ago as a gift to my girlfriend's mother was through a corp discount site through my work. I ordered the following config:

Thinkpad T420
Intel I5-2520M
Win 7 64-pro
14" HD+ (1600x900) LED
NVIDIA N12P-GV switchable graphics
4GB PC3-10600 DDR3 RAM
720p camera
500GB HD 7200RPM
DVD RW
9-cell battery
2x2 AGN Wifi
Warranty upgrade: 3YR PRIORITY ONSITE + 3YR TPP
It was around $1100 (keep in mind the 3 year next day onsite warrant adds a good portion to the price, but this was key since she will be using this as her personal business machine).

I also ordered the Mini Dock plus series 3 for $199 so that she could replace her desktop easily without worrying about connecting/disconnecting cables.

Last, I got the 14W Sleeve case for about $13 to protect the laptop until her mom can find a laptop bag she likes.

My only negative complaints about the T420 was the noise and the case creaking when holding it with one hand. I'm used to my T500 being so quiet, but when the T420 gets busy, the fan noise was louder than expected (but still tolerable). I know it's configurable, but the default settings were more than expected. On the one side of the case when I hold it with one hand, the pressure from me gripping the laptop causes the case to collapse slightly causing a creak/plastic-like crunch noise. This has to do with the card bay being in that location with nothing inside of it. The laptop isn't damaged, it's may not be meant to be hold/gripped with one hand on that side.

The battery life is superb (with the 9-cell) like Mercutio also commented on. I also don't feel like the machine is bulky at all. The monitor is decent on it. I feel like the clarity is slightly better on my older T500, but overall the display is very nice. The keyboard is much nicer than the flexy POS they put into the T500. That was a huge debacle around the time I bought mine. Lots of forum posts and complaints on Lenovo's website about this. I'm glad they got it right on the T420.

 

[Mercutio]

I should have my Intel 310 miniPCIe SSD by the end of the week.

The miniPCIe guys seem to be a bit of a dead end. Not many notebooks use them and the largest capacity I can find is 120GB. I bought an 80GB model. Hopefully it will be good enough for my purposes.

 

[CityK]

The miniPCIe guys

its mSATA

seem to be a bit of a dead end. Not many notebooks use them

cause the mini PCIe slot they plug into has to be "special" (i.e. not any old min PCIe slot will do, it has to be able to support mSATA signaling) ... and currently I don't think too many laptop manufacturers opt for that

seem to be a bit of a dead end ... the largest capacity I can find is 120GB.

Samsung just announced the introduction of more ( http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/01/samsungs-msata-pm830-is-eight-grams-of-pure-ssd/ ) ... though, availability, is/will be the question ... I suspect they will gain in adoption

 

[Howell]

I should have my Intel 310 miniPCIe SSD by the end of the week.

The miniPCIe guys seem to be a bit of a dead end. Not many notebooks use them and the largest capacity I can find is 120GB. I bought an 80GB model. Hopefully it will be good enough for my purposes.

Did you go with the SLC or MLC version?

 

[Mercutio]

MLC. It's an Intel 310. I understand that pretty much makes it an X25M with a weird connector. Haven't gotten around to installing it yet, though it is tiny.

 

[Howell]

Its a shame ExpressCard storage is so expensive comparatively. We could use the $/GB sweet spot of each technology economically, or an increase in SSD storage without imposing on the spinning disk bay.


Does Larson Creek mean something special or what is the difference between these two besides MLC vs SLC?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167039
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167063

 

[Howell]

BTW, there at least used to be some artificial hurdles to installing the mSATA drives into Lenovos.

(In)Compatibility
Though the slot is MiniPCIe in form factor, it has been crippled to only accept devices with PCI-ID's contained in a BIOS whitelist consisting of the above list of devices (likely not exhaustive and varying depending on the particular system) with the additional requirement that they must carry the Lenovo brand name and consequently cost twice as much. If an unauthorized card is plugged in it gives a 1802 error on initial boot up before it even touches the operating system. (see Problem with unauthorized MiniPCI network card, 1802 with MiniPCIe on t60,same). The workarounds on the first link concerning MiniPCI devices may or may not be directly applicable to the MiniPCIe slot. Anyone who has added non-Lenovo components to this slot either successfully or unsuccessfully is encouraged to provide any relevant details here.
Hacked BIOS with white list removed
Non-official patched versions of BIOS files are available for X300, X61, X61s, T61, T61p, R61, R61e which remove whitelist restrictions allowing non-lenovo PCI-e devices.. (see forum post: Ultimate R61/T61/X61/X300 BIOS (inc SATA-II)

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/MiniPCI_Express_slot

 

[Mercutio]

I believe the 20GB card is meant to act as high speed cache for motherboards with an optional mSATA slot using the z68 chipset.

 

[CityK]

BTW, there at least used to be some artificial hurdles to installing the mSATA drives into Lenovos.


http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/MiniPCI_Express_slot

The Lenovo whitelist issue definitely still applies to WLAN and WWAN cards.

I don't know whether they are doing the same with the mSATA SSDs. I tend to think they aren't, because I have seen posts from users using Renice cards etc. Though, I also seem to recall that users initially had a problem with installs of the intel 310 at one point back in the spring -- whether this was limited to a certain laptop model, I don't recall, but I seem to remember that it took a BIOS update to resolve the issue. So, if I"m remembering correctly, then that might point as evidence that the whitelist is applicable to the mSATA SSs too. Though, on the otherhand, the fact that more obscure (read: non mainstream) mSATA SSD cards are working would seem on face value to lessen that concern.

 

[CityK]

Okay, some follow up. I was remembering correctly that there were some problems. But I'm still not certain about whether a whitelist is in effect or not for the varying laptops. See for yourselves if you wish:

intel 310 in x220 and W520 issues:
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=98109&hilit=intel+310
- http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Serie...SB3-0-no-mSata-SSD-possible/m-p/486373#M27837
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=99885&hilit=mSATA
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=100444&hilit=mSATA

[ as an aside, I recall that most of the x220 reviews that I glanced at in the past were done with units with which Lenovo had shipped w/ an intel 310 installed ... so the issue must have been specific to the i7 configured models ... don't know what the story was on the W series laptops, but I do recall seeing reports of the intel drives not working with them orignially, but it appears that that is no longer an issue ]

OCZ drive working in T420s:
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=100398&hilit=mSATA

Samsung drive not working in E420s
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=98540&hilit=mSATA
[I know nothing about this laptop...perhaps its minPCIe slot is not configured to supprot mSATA]

Renice working in T520
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=99741&hilit=mSATA

MyDigitalSSD report their drives are compatible with some models
- http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=99568&hilit=mSATA

 

[CityK]

Also, here's an amusing find I came across while digging up that other stuff -- you can mod the older mini PCIe based SSDs into mSATA SSDs :

http://www.thejoojooforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=776&p=4961

I guess that it would be useful for those trying step up to an SSD on the cheap and/or specifically require a mSATA based device. :scratch:

Didn't Greg get a bunch of KingSpec drives last year?

 

[CougTek]

You think Greg has a temp-controlled soldering iron and knows how to work surface-mount parts?

 

[Handruin]

You think Greg has a temp-controlled soldering iron and knows how to work surface-mount parts?

Well said.

:rofl:

 

[CityK]

I would assume that if Greg could, in any way, string them together into some ginormous RAID0 array, he'd be all over it, no expenses barred.

 

[sechs]

The Lenovo whitelist issue definitely still applies to WLAN and WWAN cards.

I haven't found a Lenovo laptop that hasn't had its BIOS hacked to remove whitelisting.

 

[Mercutio]

The only thing I can say is that I had no issues cloning the Lenovo disk image onto it. It's fine. Windows 7 loads up in ~16 seconds and everything is nice and zippy in the way that I'd expect. It might be a bit low end compared to more modern SSDs but it's fine for my application.

 

[Howell]

The only thing I can say is that I had no issues cloning the Lenovo disk image onto it. It's fine. Windows 7 loads up in ~16 seconds and everything is nice and zippy in the way that I'd expect. It might be a bit low end compared to more modern SSDs but it's fine for my application.

Is it the only drive in the box, or can it be?
What did you put it in? T60?

 

[CityK]

Is it the only drive in the box, or can it be?

it can indeed be the only drive in the box.

What did you put it in?

I would assume that it went in the T420

T60?

It wouldn't work in a T60 -- the mini PCIe slot in it won't support mSATA

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, the T420 and yes I configured it as the only drive in the machine. There's no subjective weight difference between having the mechanical drive and not.

 

[Mercutio]

One tiny annoyance with the T420: It's very easy to pop the optical drive open. I've accidentally done it probably a dozen times in the last 24 hours.

 

[Handruin]

I do that all the time even on my T500. A software lock wold be a nice feature.

 

[ddrueding]

I have the same problem with my 410. If I had a battery that would fit I'd put it in just to avoid this issue.

 

[Handruin]

I think there is an option to power down the bay to save battery. Maybe that's the alternative? If it's powered down, it shouldn't eject.

 

[ddrueding]

It does power down, but pressing the eject when it is powered down causes it to power up and then eject. So it happens 30-40 seconds later when you are less ready for it.

 

[Handruin]

Bummer. I don't remember trying that, so I didn't know if it would keep it from ejecting. Thanks for checking.

 

[CougTek]

Fill the tray with epoxy and close it. No matter how much you zing with the button, it won't open for sure. Use an external slim USB drive on those rare instances when it's needed.

 

[Mercutio]

Fill the tray with epoxy and close it. No matter how much you zing with the button, it won't open for sure. Use an external slim USB drive on those rare instances when it's needed.

I settled on sticking an empty 2.5" SATA bay in mine. The door thing just got too aggravating. Looks like they cost about $15 on Ebay if you don't have one already but for that matter, who doesn't want to carry around an extra 500GB of music and stuff?

 

[LunarMist]

Extra 500 GB of music? I don't have 25GB altogether. :crap: