Nichia Develops 60 Lumen Per Watt White LED

[Santilli]

Whatever.

Update. Returned the 40 dollar, 75 Watt LED. Too directional for what I was using it for. Best replaced with a MFL.
However, I have been delighted to find the Lights of America LED
http://store.mancor.org/led-bulb-4-watt-only-new.aspx
14.00 at Costco, to be brighter then their claims, or let me put it this way: When I replace a higher watt bulb with them, they put out a different type of light that seems bright, and adequate.
Some of their other lights have been panned for not lasting the advertized 20K hours, so these are rated at 15k. So, they are getting 50 lumens per watt, 200 lumens.

The spot was 900 lumens, but the cost of 40 dollars for one, vs. 5.00 per bulb for these made it cost ineffective.

 

[Stereodude]

http://store.mancor.org/led-bulb-4-watt-only-new.aspx
14.00 at Costco, to be brighter then their claims, or let me put it this way: When I replace a higher watt bulb with them, they put out a different type of light that seems bright, and adequate.
Some of their other lights have been panned for not lasting the advertized 20K hours, so these are rated at 15k. So, they are getting 50 lumens per watt, 200 lumens.

So you're going for that dim 15W appliance bulb look throughout your house?

 

[Santilli]

More the contemporary man-cave. Downstairs apartments kind of lend themselves to that. The lights remind me more of 40-60 Watts. The very bright LED's through the clear bulb is really bright.

Also, they are replacing MFL. The walls are painted high quality, high gloss paint. They reflect well. The popcorn ceiling doesn't. The view is beautiful.

 

[Santilli]

One thing about the MFL's is half their light is directed inwards. The LED's send 100% of their light OUT. That's a huge difference in brightness.

 

[CougTek]

One thing about the MFL...

What's MFL for? Mystical fairy light?

 

[Santilli]

Mini flor...

 

[sechs]

They're called compact fluorescents, or CFLs.

 

[LunarMist]

Santilli has some odd fluorescent lamps that direct the light inwards. CFLs are not like that so who knows.

 

[CougTek]

Santilli has some odd fluorescent lamps that direct the light inwards.

They sell mini black holes in bulbs now? Wow, what progress have we made!

 

[Santilli]

http://www.mustknowhow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/fluorescent-light-bulb-picture1.jpg

Notice that the brighter part of the picture is in the center of this bulb, surrounded by the fluorescent tubing.
Also notice that more light is coming off on the inside of the circle formed by the tube, then the outside. Notice that the tube itself is blocking the light coming from the inside of the tube from doing much good to light the room.

These are the only bulbs that use half their light to light the center of the circle. I guess it is a bit of a black hole, since the tube does not radiate the light out.

They do seem heavy for their size. Perhaps the first step in reaching black hole status?

 

[LunarMist]

Let the light warm up for ten minutes and use a longer exposure. The lighting from the tube should be even except close to the base.

 

[Santilli]

Let the light warm up for ten minutes and use a longer exposure. The lighting from the tube should be even except close to the base.

A LED directs 100% of it's light out without wasting light being shadowed. The result in my real time application is the LED's appear substantially brighter then their rating, and the MFL appear less bright then their rating.

I'm enjoying the LED's and the fact that they are instant on without warm up. Combining the two in one fixture shows the merits and short comings of both.

The LED's are yet to be offered in a halfway reasonable cost package for anything but lower lumens.

I tried the 38, a 40 dollar light bulb (900 lumens) but it was overly directional for even a spot light.

 

[sechs]

These are the only bulbs that use half their light to light the center of the circle.

It's less than half. Simple geometry would tell you that. Of course, you don't blame incandescents for sending part of their light into the base of the bulb.

The fact of the matter is that, if we did not put phosphors on that part of the tube facing in, not only would it be dimmer, but also not change the energy usage. So, it's not wasted light.

I guess it is a bit of a black hole, since the tube does not radiate the light out.

Kind of like how leaving the light on in a closed room with no one in it is a black hole?

 

[sechs]

A LED directs 100% of it's light out without wasting light being shadowed.

How do you know? "Misdirected" light would simply go into the substrate material, and, if not reflected, never seen.

 

[LunarMist]

The directionality of LEDs are one of the main problems when used to replaced standard bulbs. Of course they have advantages for certain purposes when directional lighting is desired.

 

[Santilli]

How do you know? "Misdirected" light would simply go into the substrate material, and, if not reflected, never seen.

Design:
Google is your friend:
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/led3.htm
Lunar has it right that they are directional and getting around this is one of the neat things they have done with the new bulbs.

 

[LunarMist]

Design:
Google is your friend:
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/led3.htm
Lunar has it right that they are directional and getting around this is one of the neat things they have done with the new bulbs.

Are you using an integrating sphere and decent calibrated light meter?

 

[Santilli]

Yes. MY eyes;-)

 

[LunarMist]

No, I don't think so.

 

[sechs]

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/led3.htmLunar has it right that they are directional and getting around this is one of the neat things they have done with the new bulbs.

You realise that the first paragraph supports my statement and disproves yours?

 

[Handruin]

You realise that the first paragraph supports my statement and disproves yours?

You realize that the first paragraph does not support your statement and proves his?

 

[sdbardwick]

The howstuffworks article does not go deep enough; it implies that the all photons emitted are away from the substrate. That is not the case; about 1/2 the photons are converted back into heat. The wikipedia entry does a decent job showing the light cones.

 

[sechs]

You realize that the first paragraph does not support your statement and proves his?

Huh?

LEDs are specially constructed to release a large number of photons outward. Additionally, they are housed in a plastic bulb that concentrates the light in a particular direction. As you can see in the diagram, most of the light from the diode bounces off the sides of the bulb, traveling on through the rounded end.

 

[LunarMist]

That sounds like of a description of a T1 3/4 LED from 40 years ago.

 

[Howell]

Santilli if you knew how the lumens ratings are determined you would not claim that anything appears brighter than its rating. It just doesn't make any sense.*

 

[Santilli]

Really?

Guess science trumps perception?

All good. You stay with your lumen ratings, I'll observe the lights side by side and stay with my conclusions and observations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzG-utGj4no&feature=related

Seems others are noticing the same thing...

 

[Howell]

I'll observe the lights side by side and stay with my conclusions and observations.

Which is what exactly? That a light rated brighter is actually brighter? If you dropped the smug attitude you could learn something that would benefit you.

 

[LunarMist]

Really?

Guess science trumps perception?

Absolutely! There is reason to use calibrated instruments. Human perception is notoriously poor at converting analog data to numerical values. They are good at making relative comparisons when there are very few variables being compared. For example if the lighting pattern is exactly the same it is possible to compare light levels, but when the patterns are significantly different it is unreasonable to expect the human eye/brain to accurately integrate uneven light levels. If there are differnces in spectra it is even more difficult.

 

[Santilli]

The above link goes to a video where a person uses a light meter to compare two lights. One is an LED. He finds that the light meter shows a higher rating then the lumen rating on the bulb(LED).
This is what I have observed.

My sample is valid for only the 4 watt LED's I posted to. My perception of MFL is they start out dimmer, take awhile, then give off a decent amount of light. In MY fixtures, the LED's seem better designed to focus
that light in areas where I can see it.

I am delighted with these LED's. I just got my electric bill, and it's down to 500 KWH. That keeps me out of the premium use area and works about 10 dollars less than last month.

Haven't you ever noticed that incandescent bulbs come in many finishes and types, all with the same watt rating? The amount of light they give out, and the color can determine what you see as light, and it's intensity. The light maybe the same but the color of that
light can make one appear brighter than another.

The amount of light that a given bulb can give off is also determined by what blocks that light from getting out. In my fixtures the LED's do a better job of putting light into areas I can see it.
Your mileage may vary.

Thank you for the feedback on methods of measuring light.

In this case the categories are three: what I would like: 100 Watts in each fixture.
Two: Useable lights that while not 100 watts, work in the fixtures they are installed in and provide enough light to do the tasks required.
Three: Lights that do not provide enough light for the given task in the given fixture.

The 4 Watt LED's have worked in category two. I thought they would be in category 3 and that I would have to return them.
I did do this with the 900 Lumen 70 W LED spot, because the beam of light was too narrow for the fixture and work area.

 

[sechs]

It sounds like you're generalizing to all LEDs what is probably specific to your situation.

It's like saying that CFLs suck because you stuck a spiral in a track light can, rather than a proper reflector-type CFL.

 

[Santilli]

There are not many LED's available. I have sampled two. I was specific to those two. I am not making any generalizations. You are drawing conclusions unsupported by my comments.

 

[sechs]

Sorry. Your posts must appear differently in my browser.

 

[Santilli]

Costco is carrying higher lumens for about the same price.

The combined effect has lowered my electric bill to 40 dollars last month. I like that.

I think PG&E will probably raise the rates if this keeps up.

 

[time]

I can now buy drop-in replacement LED lamps from Osram. Unfortunately, there are only two choices of color temperature: 3000K and 6500K.

WTF? This is the same problem I have with Philips CFLs - they're only available in 2700K and 6500K. What if I don't want yellow or blue, but a neutral white? Ideally 4000K, but I'm now desperate enough to compromise anywhere between 3500 and 5000.

Previously, I was able to buy 4000K CFLs from Megaman, but these seem to have dried up as well. Do consumers really want yellow lighting, or is this driven by the usual brain-dead stupidity of the supermarket duopoly that we're cursed with in Oz?

 

[Bozo]

People want yellow lighting. That is what we are used to having for the last 100+ years.

 

[time]

But is that really true? It was only incandescent lighting that was yellow - fluorescent has traditionally been 'cool white', or 4100-4200K.

There's a belief that people prefer lights to be yellower as they get dimmer, but I think that's a load of rubbish. Look no further than the popularity of LED flashlights; you can 'see' much better with their 'whiter' light. One of the annoyances I had with dimmers and incandescent lamps was that the resulting light was so yellow you couldn't see things properly.

I realize that the relationship may well hold when you're shifting to blue lighting, i.e. 6500K lights that are very bright start to look natural.

 

[Stereodude]

If I had my choice I'd get something around 4500k with a very high CRI (90+).

 

[ddrueding]

In living spaces I have 5000k, in work spaces I prefer 6500k. Both CRI 95+

 

[Bozo]

The fluorescent lighting in the office area I work in is 'Warm White'. We had the 'Cool White' lamps replaced about 12 years ago.
The only CFL lamps my wife lets me install are in the yellow range.
The blue hue lights look very un-natural to me.
The Sun is yellow too. Maybe when it becomes a White Dwarf, Cool White lamps will look more natural to me. :-D

 

[timwhit]

The Sun is yellow too. Maybe when it becomes a White Dwarf, Cool White lamps will look more natural to me. :-D

The sun is different colors throughout the day and depending on cloud cover, it is fairly yellow at sunset and sunrise. However, during the day or when it's overcast the sun is between 5500-6500k.