question PC may have died-need some feedback on MB/CPU/RAM

[jtr1962]

My A7N8X-E may finally have given up the ghost. It was periodicly experiencing total freezes, and they were getting more and more frequent. Last night I figured I would open the computer up, dust it off inside, reseat the RAM, and replace the thermal compound on the processor heat sink. That part went well, but afterwards I experienced trouble getting the machine to boot. It did boot to XP-once. After the next restart I couldn't get past the first few seconds of rebooting before it did a hard reset. Today it sometmes wouldn't even start the memory test after POST. According to some online articles, my motherboard is sometimes the victim of bad capacitors which result in the symptoms I mentioned. I tacked some replacement caps onto a parts order which will get here on October 19. When the parts arrive, I'll attempt surgery on my motherboard. If I'm not successful, I'll have to think about ordering a new motherboard, RAM, and processor from Newegg. Here's what I have in mind:

CPU:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103942

I find the concept of integrating a GPU and CPU on the same die very interesting. I avoid the need to purchase a separate graphics card, and the on-chip GPU is plenty fast for my needs (MSTS Train Simulator is the only 3D game I play regularly).

Motherboard:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128511

RAM:

8GB:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231314

16GB:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231429

For now I'm keeping XP as the O/S because I don't have time to get into reinstalling all my old applications, and in general dealing with the headaches of an O/S upgrade. My plan is to just connect my existing boot drive to the new MB, and install whatever drivers are needed after booting up. Down the road I'll obviously need a 64-bit O/S to access all my RAM unless there are workarounds to let XP access >4GB which I'm not aware of.

Note that I may not need to do anything at all if the cap replacement fixes the problem. I just want some feedback on my proposed replacement parts if the repair is unsuccessful.

P.S. This couldn't have come at a worse time, financially and otherwise.

 

[Mercutio]

Well, you'll have to do a repair install of Windows if you're moving to such dissimilar hardware. And it's not like that board didn't have an unnaturally long life compared to all the other A7N8Xs I had. I'm shocked that it worked as long as it did.

That's probably a pretty decent build for your needs. The motherboard looks solid and I'm sure 8GB of RAM will be fine for the near future.

 

[mubs]

The coin battery on the MB is the culprit more often than people realize. It won't cost a lot; replace it, set bios to defaults and try. I've had this happen too many times to me.

 

[jtr1962]

I checked all the obvious stuff like the CMOS backup battery. I'm nearly 100% certain this is a bad capacitor problem. I've read that failing hard disks can give similar symptoms (and my boot disk is a vintage 2005 200GB Maxtor) but I don't think that's the case here. I managed to boot to Ubuntu with a live CD. After that, I tried playing GNU chess. There was no hard disk or CD-ROM access, but I imagine chess is CPU intensive. Anyway, after about 5 minutes the machine did a hard reset. CPU temps were OK when I checked the hardware monitor in the BIOS upon reboot, so it sounds like a power problem of some sort. There's a remote chance my Seasonic 300W supply could be failing, but I kind of doubt it. It's had an easy life, running at <100W output. That leaves the power supply on the MB as the only remaining culprit.

Assuming I can't fix the problem, I'm thinking this MB might be a better fit. It's very similar to the first one, except it has more expansion slots. Unfortunately, since I have PATA optical drives and boot drive, I'll need to use my PCI PATA card. Down the road I'll upgrade to an SSD boot drive, probably at the same time I upgrade the O/S (I think I'll wait for Windows 8, hoping I'll be able to do an install which keeps all my apps intact).

Yeah, this A7N8X has had an unnaturally long life. It may yet be resuscitated for a little more duty. I did want to upgrade sometime in the next year anyway as the system is starting to get long in the tooth. I just want to do it on my schedule, not have my hand forced like now.

 

[time]

Did you actually disconnect the HDD while trying the Ubuntu CD?

What about the graphics card?

I'd be reluctant to spend too much on an AMD solution these days - I think it makes more sense when you use one of their cheaper CPUs, and when you're actually going to utilize the GPU capabilities. Excessive power consumption is the main drawback.

 

[jtr1962]

Did you actually disconnect the HDD while trying the Ubuntu CD?

What about the graphics card?

I'd be reluctant to spend too much on an AMD solution these days - I think it makes more sense when you use one of their cheaper CPUs, and when you're actually going to utilize the GPU capabilities. Excessive power consumption is the main drawback.

I removed and reseated the graphics card just in case there might have been a contact issue. No, I didn't disconnect the HDDs in Ubuntu, but there shouldn't have been HDD access given that I booted from CD. Like I said, I'm nearly certain this is a bad cap issue. I'll know for sure when the caps come on the 19th.

Only thing worrying me about going AMD is I've read socket FM1 might be short-lived. Also, the 28 nm interation of the APU is due out later this year. Given that, it might make more sense to wait a bit, make due with my mom's PC until then if I can't fix mine.

 

[time]

You're the electronics guru, but I'd still counsel you to prepare for a replacement. In that vein, here are some tips:

• Changing from an nForce 2 motherboard is always a drama. As Merc said, you will need to run a Windows upgrade-repair.
  
• The train simulator has very low GPU requirements that could be handled by ANY modern PC. There's simply no point in chasing a platform with more graphics grunt.
  
• No-one needs more than one optical drive (except where one is a Blu-ray ROM). Also, DVD-RW SATA drives are ridiculously cheap.
  
• You can still get motherboards with PATA connectors, and don't forget that one port services 2 devices.
  
• You can't even use more than 2-3GB RAM until you upgrade to Windows 7 64-bit, and even then it's tough to exceed 4GB.
  
• Any mainstream CPU you buy will be stupidly faster than what you have now. There's no point holding out for a mid-to-high end one, just grab whatever is value for money. There are far better things to spend your limited money on, like hard drives and an SSD.

From the Intel camp, I suggest ASUS P8H67-M PRO/CSM with a Intel Celeron G530 (2.4GHz/2MB Sandy Bridge), or maybe a Intel Pentium G840 (2.8GHz/3MB Sandy Bridge) if you want to spend another $28. Add a Kingston 4MB RAM module (or 2x 2GB if you prefer) and that's just $197 all up.

From AMD, you can get a PATA port for as little as $40 - if you're prepared to drop USB 3.0 and gamble on Foxconn. $60 will get you the same thing from Asus or MSI (I prefer the AMD chipsets to the nVidia solutions). The ASUS M4A88T-M/USB3 is a great board and includes USB 3.0, but it's $100. According to PassMark, no AMD X2 CPU gets close to the new Celeron - you'd have to pick one of the X4 models; eg an X4 645 is stronger, but it's $100 and a 95W CPU.

Incidentally, an AMD A4-3300 produces a comparable PassMark score to the baby Celeron - but it needs 4 cores instead of 2 to do it, so I wouldn't count on great single-threaded performance. This and the weaker power efficiency for similar money are what ruins the attractiveness of the AMD solution.

 

[CougTek]

I would go with an Intel platform too, but given his low finances, I would opt for an ASRock H61M/U3S3 instead. There's even 2 SATA 6Gbps connectors (probably through a Marvell controller since the H61 chipset doesn't support SATA 6Gbps ports by itself). It's 69.99$ shipped from Newegg. There's no IDE port, but I would rather leave my data on a new hard drive than on a vintage drive from another era. The ASRock motherboard + new SATA 500GB drive is approximately the same price as the Asus H67 board you linked above.

 

[CougTek]

I just have a machiavelic thought that I unfortunately won't be able to achieve because Newegg.com doesn't accept international credit card orders. I would have bought half the parts JTR needs to replace his museum computer and send them to him. I'm sure that even if he would have been able to fix his old board, he would not have been capable to resist buying the rest of the parts to complete the new build.

 

[jtr1962]

Well, the machine wouldn't even post today. I guess it's definitive that it's not an HDD issue.

On the potential replacement machine, I do in fact want something with some graphics grunt because there are several new train simulators out which I'm planning to purchase eventually. MSTS, like my old PC, is starting to show its age. Also, I'm doing a little future proofing by going with 8 or 16 GB of RAM (and also having lots of SATA 6 Gbps ports). Might as well get the RAM now while it's stupidly inexpensive. The price is heading up if the economy picks up.

Anyone know what's happening with SSD prices? I'd love to get an SSD boot drive if I do a new build, but to me the price/capacity ratio is still way too high. I was hoping to get something to match the size of my current boot drive (200 GB) for under $100. Unfortunately, it seems SSD prices haven't budged much in 2 years.

BTW, seeing what's out there now it's going to be hard putting off an upgrade for much longer even if I get my museum PC running again. I wasn't even aware of integrated GPUs/CPUs until yesterday. If the machine gets fixed, I'll probably be looking to do an upgrade late 2011/early 2012. This was actrually my original time frame until this happened.

 

[CityK]

Sounds a lot like an issue I had with an A64 (Via based chipset?) system a couple of year's ago.

After troubleshooting as best I could with that, my guess then was that its a capacitance issue with the video card ... Best clue to that conclusion was that I could generate the reboot quickest when the graphics 3d engine got working. A 2d console based environment would run for a real long time. I caught on to those facts slightly before the system degraded rapidly to the conditional point where its operational time between reboots had diminished to the state of being "useless" (i.e. it became pointless even trying to boot as it resulted in instant failure when a desktop started up ... regardless of whether using XP or Linux).

If I unplugged the system for lengths of time (talking full drain days/weeks/months), I could then retry and get to use the system with a 3d environment for maybe an hour or so before the reboots started up again. Once they started, it was right back to the state of being pointless trying to use the system afterwards.

As its an AGP adapter, and I didn't have any other such card around, and wasn't interested in throwing good $ after bad, so I have never bothered to confirm my hypothesis .... though perhaps I could pick one up for free now somewhere and test that system out again (its currently packed away in some box, buried in a closet and has been sitting idle .... I think the only reason why I've kept it and not recycled it long ago is that I secretly want to confirm my suspicion).:bglaugh:

If you have access to another video card, swap out your current adapter and try the system out with the other, as I think time was on the right track

 

[jtr1962]

For what it's worth, a few weeks before I noticed that sometimes I would get jumbled screen displays when doing things like photo editing. When I jumped to other apps and back to the photo editing software, all was well.

I do have another graphics cards in my mom's machine to test, but I'm honestly too lazy to bother. It doesn't have a DVI output, so basically a swap entails switching cards, then finding a VGA cable somewhere. The MB does have a pair of bulging caps near where the power supply connects. A power supply problem will cause everything to act funny, including the graphics. Given the age of the board, it's almost a certainty the caps have issues, even if they're not visibly bulging. I recall for example that I was never able to overclock my processor at all. I'll replace the caps first. If the problem persists, I could try a graphics card swap to see if that's the problem. I kind of doubt it. The way you describe how the problem sort of corrected itself after the system was unplugged for a while points to a capacitor problem of some sort. The caps drain all the way to 0 volts when the machine is sitting long enough. That might temporarily decrease their ESR via some mechanism I'm not familiar with.

I just realized if I need a new system I can add a parallel port to my list of esoteric requirements. I use a microcontroller programmer which only interfaces via a parallel port. On the two motherboards I linked to, only the Micro ATX one has a connector for a parallel port on board (but it has fewer expansion slots). I might have a PATA card with a parallel port laying around somewhere-need to check. Also need to check if my power supply has the 8-pin 12 volt connector which it seems a lot of motherboards require these days.

And what's with the single PS/2 connector I see on all the motherboards now? Can you use both the mouse and keyboard on the same connector using an adaptor?

 

[jtr1962]

Well, looks like you may be right. I just took out the graphics card and noticed 3 bulging caps (6.3V, 1000uF). I didn't have this value handy, so I replaced them each with a pair of 16V, 470 uF solid caps. System posted fine, did a memory test, and attemped to boot into XP. No luck. I booted into Ubuntu via CD just fine. I checked my HHD partitions. There are some errors in my boot partition which I fixed. My CMOS got wiped clean for some reason also. One of the CMOS settings was the reason it wouldn't boot into XP.

The caps partially fixed the problem but the system still locks up after a few minutes in XP. I also reattached the graphics card heat sink with thermal epoxy. I'm going to try adding another cap to each pair and see what happens. If that doesn't work, I'll replace the motherboard caps as originally planned when they arrive.

 

[jtr1962]

The extra caps made it worse. I'm not wasting any more time playing around with this video card. Since it seems the card may be causing some or all of my problems, I'll get a new one. Truth is even when this card was brand new it would sometimes crash when playing 3D games for a few hours.

Any suggestions for a new card from among these options?

The card needs to be AGP 8X and fanless. Other than that, I don't care. If someone has a used fanless AGP 8X card they can sell me, let me know. My current card is a GeForce 6200 with 128 MB. Anything equal or better is fine.

 

[jtr1962]

More updates. I removed the extra caps on the graphics card but the system is doing the same thing. Now it won't even boot to XP. Since the graphics card caps were indeed bad, and I replaced them, we can pretty much assume now the graphics card wasn't the problem, although it may have made things worse. The computer shut down after playing chess for a few minutes in Ubuntu just like before. We'll see what happens when I replace the motherboard caps in a few days. I'm honestly hoping I can get it fixed because an upgrade suddenly became even more expensive. My power supply doesn't have an 8-pin 12V connector. That adds a power supply to the list of things I'll need for an upgrade (in addition to a parallel port card and possibly a USB keyboard or mouse).

 

[time]

• The FM1 motherboard you linked to in your first post has a parallel port header.
• Intel H61 motherboards often have a parallel port header, or even an actual parallel port. Nothing since from Intel.
• The last motherboard I can find - either AMD or Intel - that still had both a parallel port header and a PATA (IDE) port is the M4A88T-M/USB3 I linked to earlier.
• The 8-pin connector is made up of two 4-pin connectors, one of which is usually optional and often not even on the board. Your PSU should be fine.

 

[jtr1962]

I replaced the 2 820 uF caps which were bulging. The eight 3300 uf caps near the microprocessor seem OK. They're Rubicons, not the problematic Nichicons. The system is better, but still not 100% stable. In fact, I'm writing this post from it right now. I suspect I may need to replace the 13 1000 uF caps with conductive polymer (i.e. solid) caps. Oh, and the graphics card isn't the problem. I swapped in the one from my mom's machine and still experienced some instability. Bottom line-it's either a motherboard capacitor problem, or perhaps (very remote chance) a PSU problem. Next step-order some 1000 uF solid caps and see if that fixes the problem. If not, it looks like a new MB/CPU/RAM is in my future.

 

[CougTek]

Have you opened the power supply to check its capacitors?

 

[BingBangBop]

At some point it gets to be better to replace the entire machine rather than fixing up an old machine. Personally, I think you've already gone past that point. i.e. -- isn't your time worth something or is this capacitor issue just a point of honor for you.

For me, even one bulging capacitor means replace the device. I wouldn't even consider the repair option. If there is one failed, then the odds are you will have more and you are not limited to having to just examine the MB but all the devices with capacitors like the graphics card and power supply. Then there is the cost of ordering replacements and the time needed to actually do the soldering. When you are done, it is likely to be more stable but you still just have an old, not so reliable, machine. It just doesn't seem to be worth it, to me.

 

[time]

Just to reinforce BBB's post, it's worth remembering that bulging capacitors are a symptom of a systemic problem. You cannot determine if capacitors are okay by visual inspection, but if at least one is bulging, you can tell that the board is stuffed or likely to become so.

I'd say it is a point of honor with Jtr - I respect that and am intrigued to see how this all works out.

Doesn't mean you don't need a new MB+CPU though ...

 

[jtr1962]

I haven't yet replaced the 13 1000 uF caps but the system has been running all night without shutting down. I noticed a funny thing-the system seems stable so long as I have the case open. And it doesn't appear to be a thermal issue. The system was unstable with the case closed even from a cold restart. I'm suspecting RFI reflecting off the side panel. And the RFI in turn points to a marginally stable swtiching convertor on the MB, which in turn is likely bad caps. The 1000 uF caps are OSI. Here it was mentioned that they tend to fail without visible signs. Therefore, it makes sense to replace them all. I do have replacement caps on hand. They were 10mm instead of 8mm, but I decided rather than waste more money/time ordering the right size, I'll stick these in. Electrically they're just as good, but visually I may need to have some caps turned sideways with the leads showing. No big deal-I'm aiming for functionality here, not beauty.

As for why do this, I hate tossing something which still has useful life left in it. The system as is still serves my needs (when it's stable). I either want to fix it, or satisfy myself that it's really beyond hope. It might have been easier if the entire MB would have went up in smoke. And I do want to upgrade sometime in the next year, but prefer that it be on my terms, not forced. If I get this system working, it'll serve as a halfway decent backup system once I upgrade.

 

[jtr1962]

I put in the 1000 uF caps. Still the same thing-stable with the cover off, shuts down randomly with it on. Last thing to do is change out the 3300 uF caps around the CPU. The caps I bought were too big. I need to order 10mm Sanyos on eBay. Even though the caps on my MB weren't the problematic Nichicons, the system has been running 24/7 most of the time since 2006. It's entirely possible they're out of spec by now. Well, at least the system is good enough to use now with the side cover off until the caps arrive. I'll try underclocking to see if maybe I can run it with the cover on. If I can get another 4 to 6 months with my repairs I'll be happy.

 

[Howell]

Total cost so far not including labor? Under $50 I would think.

 

[jtr1962]

Total cost so far not including labor? Under $50 I would think.

I tacked the caps onto a parts order for another project

25 pcs 1000 uF caps at 0.21 each = $5.25
15 pcs 3300 uF caps at 0.68 each = $10.20
sales tax = $1.37

TOTAL = $16.82 (actually less because I'll have nine 1000 uF caps and seven 3300 uF caps left over for other projects)

I'm not counting labor because I'm thinking of this as more a hobby expenditure of time (and possibly a way to save $300+ in the short term). I doubt I've spent more than 2 hours actually physically working on the machine anyway, and probably an equal amount of time researching the problem.

I have room to put in the 3300 uF caps, so I decided to use those rather than ordering Sanyo WGs. I'll probably do the last round of motherboard surgery later today. I decided to take a mimimalist approach, replacing first the 2 bulging caps, then the OST caps, and finally the 3300 uF caps if there were still problems.

I was playing MS Train Simulator for 1.5 hours last night with no issues. That stresses the system pretty good. Unfortunately, the system did shut down sometime during in the night, so it's not 100% fixed, but it is useable with the cover off.

Have you opened the power supply to check its capacitors?

I don't think it's necessary. The problem manifests itself as either the system locking up, or more commonly just shutting down, as if overtemperature protection kicks in. That all points to something on the motherboard. The power supply is good quality (Seasonic), and it's never been pushed to more than about 1/3 of maximum output.

 

[jtr1962]

I think I got it fixed. It ran for 48 hours with the side cover off before I shut it down today to replace the 3300 uF caps. Not enough room to replace all the caps because the ones I had were larger diameter. I put in 4 out of 8. System booted into XP with the cover on just fine. So far it seems stable. I may order some Sanyo WGs just to have on hand in case I want to replace the remaining four caps down the road.

 

[Mercutio]

That is an assload of work for a 10 year old motherboard.

 

[jtr1962]

That is an assload of work for a 10 year old motherboard.

I did it more to see if I could than anything else. I figure if I saved $300 in the short term it was probably worth the 5 or 6 hours spent on actual repair time. As a bonus, I also did some advance research for my next upgrade.

Here's a picture with the caps I replaced maked in red. One which had to go in sideways was circled. There's another one near the fan not shown which I pointed to with an arrow.

 

[jtr1962]

Actually, I think the MB is closer to 8 years old. I considered the work worthwhile because this was considered a high-end MB back in the day, at least judging from the reviews on the Newegg product page. Now whenever I upgrade the system can do limited duty as a second/backup machine.

 

[ddrueding]

Nice work. I had quite a few of those back in the day...of course they are all scrap now.

 

[jtr1962]

I've had the PC running now for 24 hours straight. I swapped in the supply from my mom's PC because the 5V rail was marginally better (21A instead of 20A) and my MB converts the CPU power from the 5V rail.

Even though it's fixed, I'm probably going to upgrade sometime in the next 6 months. Would it make sense to order the RAM now since I heard prices are heading up?

 

[ddrueding]

RAM still isn't so bad, it's the hard drives that are going crazy.

 

[Handruin]

You can track your ram prices here if you want to drive yourself insane.

 

[Stereodude]

Have RAM prices even gone up?

 

[ddrueding]

Have RAM prices even gone up?

Not the one I care about.

 

[Mercutio]

A little. But historically, prices go up in the fall and into the new year. I've always assumed that was due to demand on the supply chain leading up to the Xmas bonanza plus a lot of new annual technology budgets.

Anyway, money has a time value and buying RAM that won't be used for six months isn't a good idea.

 

[jtr1962]

For what it's worth, the time value of my money at this point is under 2%. Assuming I went with 16GB and spent $100 now, if it's selling for over $102 in 6 months I'm ahead. And there's a very good chance I might be upgrading in less than 6 months anyway. The graph looks like it bottomed out if you ask me. Unfortunately, I missed the $39.99 low point but I get 1 free 4GB Micro SD card with each 8GB which is almost as good (and I could use them).

This article seems to confirm my beliefs:

"From the market perspective, since contract price showed signs of stabilization in the first half of September, the spot market looks as if it the downward price trend has nearly bottomed out and whether buyers are eager to purchase." (yes, I know this quote doesn't exactly show great command of English)

 

[timwhit]

Is there a reason you need 16GB of RAM? I would think that 8GB would be plenty for what I would guess you use the system for.

I do Java development on a laptop with 8GB of RAM. This includes running Eclipse, a DB server, a Java application Server, as well as a variety of office applications and I am using less than 5GB of physical memory.

 

[Stereodude]

Because 8GB of decent DDR3-1600 is under $50, why not?

 

[LunarMist]

That is an assload of work for a 10 year old motherboard.

That sums it up, but I think he enjoys it as the hobby. 20 years ago I would have done the same, but I'm too lazy now and prefer to discard rather than repair.

 

[jtr1962]

Because 8GB of decent DDR3-1600 is under $50, why not?

That's exactly the reason. In the scheme of things, spending an extra $50 on my next upgrade won't break the bank. I'm also interested in future-proofing any upgrade as much as possible since I tend to use systems for a long time in between upgrades. 16GB may seem outlandish now, but I might be doing something in 2 years time when I need it. And no guarantee RAM prices will be low then. An act of mother nature could make RAM prices skyrocket, just as is happening with hard drives.

Come to think of it, I've traditionally budgeted about $100 for RAM when doing upgrades. I remember when that only bought 32 MB. Now it buys 16 GB.