Ryzen

[CougTek]

Do you think that AMD has a problem with the Zen 5? The Zen 4 was back in 2022 and intel is seemingly developing more CPUs more often.

I think that what's driving the schedule at AMD is the server market. They are so far ahead of what Intel offers at the moment that they don't need to hurry before introducing a new architecture. Zen5 server chips will be out in time to compete with Intel's Granite Rapids (6th gen Xeon), but until then, there's no need to launch a new generation since 4th gen Epyc still beats 5th gen Xeon in most metrics.

Also, for the mobile market, anything on Zen4 is still more efficient than whatever Intel has today. They might not have the absolute top performance, but what AMD's processors do, they do it with less power than Intel's latest generation can at a similar level.

 

[LunarMist]

INtel has about 75% of the x86-64 laptop market since 2020, so obviously AMD still has a long way to go.
Maybe we will have a better Tyzen 5 for laptops in Q1 2025, but by then iNtel will have their 15th gen CPUS/GPUs.
I'm still awaiting the verdict on whether Ryzen 5 will have SMP or some kind of AMP arrangement like the INtel and Arms/Apples systems.

 

[Mercutio]

Do you think that AMD has a problem with the Zen 5? The Zen 4 was back in 2022 and intel is seemingly developing more CPUs more often.

Intel has been and still is playing the same game basically since 8th generation: Release a new CPU every year with high enough power requirements for a high end CPU to clock 100MHz faster than last year's model. Since 12th gen, they've added the E-cores nonsense to the mix and a DDR5 controller. That's also a whoopdefuck, but people keep buying 300W i9-whatever CPUs, so Intel keeps making new ones.

AMD is getting the benefit of a die shrink with Granite Ridge. Hopefully that will reign in the heat somewhat. Or maybe they'll have an updated heat spreader for Ryzen 9000, so it least cooling it won't be quite as crazy.

Everything I've read about Granite Ridge and Strix Point says that AMD is sticking with full fat SMP for desktop and mobile.

 

[LunarMist]

I would be stoked if the Granites can work in my current X670E.

 

[Mercutio]

Rumors say it's AM5, which suggests you'll just need a BIOS update. I suspect we'd probably be hearing about it A LOT if AMD did a one-generation CPU socket. AMD also just released a new line of low end Ryzen 5000XTs, just in case you're still rocking an A320 with an old Ryzen 3 on it.

 

[LunarMist]

The oldest Ryzens I use is the 5950x, which is in a secondary computer. I'll have to decide if it is worth a $400 board to reuse the 7950X and maybe another OS is necessary (I cannot recall). I only have a spare 32GB of DDR5, so it would have less RAM than the 5950X.
I might just replace the 7950X with a 9950X or whatever and call it a day. However, I'd be more inclined to upgrade if there is a new and better AM5 mainboard, but it means rebuilding two machines rather than just dropping in one CPU. The hassle factor is huge for me, especially with the cramped computer/NAS configuration.

 

[Mercutio]

The 7000-series desktops didn't seem that much better than the high end of the 5000s, and I still feel like I made a good choice to hold off.

Speaking to the idea that Granite Ridge will be socket compatible, Asus is apparently updating its AM5 boards with firmware support for larger DDR5 modules and newer CPUs. I suppose you might get more PCIe 5 lanes on a newer motherboard but I doubt there's a pressing need to upgrade from your current motherboard, either.

 

[LunarMist]

I have not had enough PCIe lanes since Hasbors E. The speed is not very important to me.
More RAM would be nice if the slow boot speed will not be worse.

 

[jtr1962]

The 7000-series desktops didn't seem that much better than the high end of the 5000s, and I still feel like I made a good choice to hold off.

Speaking to the idea that Granite Ridge will be socket compatible, Asus is apparently updating its AM5 boards with firmware support for larger DDR5 modules and newer CPUs. I suppose you might get more PCIe 5 lanes on a newer motherboard but I doubt there's a pressing need to upgrade from your current motherboard, either.

For me personally, it seems like there's 5 years between noticeable differences, but at least a decade between differences which are large enough to merit a hardware upgrade. My last desktop hardware upgrade was to the A10-7870K about 5 years ago. Comparing this to the i7-13700H laptop I bought recently, yes, the differences are quite noticeable, but I'm still in no big hurry to upgrade my desktop. Part of the reason is there would be no Windows 7 drivers for newer hardware. I'm just not in the mood to start fresh with a new O/S. And frankly I haven't used a program yet where my current desktop is lacking in computing horsepower. Maybe in another 5 years....

Moore's Law has slowed down quite a bit. It used to be there were dramatic differences between new hardware and 2-year old hardware. Those days are gone, barring some major new development. Even then, if you're not using software which takes advantage of the newer hardware, there's not much point to upgrading unless it happens to break.

 

[LunarMist]

If your workloads are sensitive to single-threaded performance, then the difference between 3950X->5950X->7950X was significant each time, around 20-25%. In a period of about 3 years the performance improvement per core was >50% and multithreaded was >60%. That was huge and maybe we won't see that rate for a while in the old x86-64.
For me the improvement from X570 to X670E in available mainboards was almost more of a big deal, but not specifically a CPU issue.

 

[sedrosken]

Using a cast-off Pavilion laptop for the summer to keep my electric bill from getting too crazy, it's got a R5-4500U in it with I think Vega 8? I'm pretty suitably impressed. Build quality is typical HP consumer-grade slop but the cooler is adequate for it and it had a single 16GB stick that won't be difficult to find a matched pair to for dual channel. It's already impressing me in single channel mode. 6c/6t Zen2 with a max turbo of 4GHz within ~15W, and it can sustain about 3GHz on all cores with the iGP running full blast too, and it's barely cracking 75 degrees.

Bear in mind that the second stick of RAM I paid all of 30 bucks for is all the money I've sunk into this. I find it difficult to complain about, even on Windows 11.

 

[LunarMist]

The 4500U looks be comparable to the i5-1145G7 of that era (~4 years ago). The cooling system is crucial to performance and if that is in a larger and heavier laptop it will perform better after the first 30 seconds than the same CPU in a T&L laptop.

I wish I could use a laptop at home, but the new ones cannot be turned on by ethernets WOL.

 

[Mercutio]

I just noticed that AMD seems to have bumped power thresholds on next-gen desktop CPUs. Looks like 170W and 105W instead of 105W and 65W like we've had up to now. I don't particularly like this development, but maybe it'll improve overall stability.

Speaking of power costs, my plan is to retire the dual Xeon I use as a file server and hypervisor before July hits, specifically to lower the overall amount of heat I'm creating for my apartment. In a perfect world, I'd be able to replace it with my Threadripper, but I don't think I'll have a new desktop at that point, which is one of the reasons I'm looking at my options for a low power platform to use in the meantime. Preferably something I can sell down the road.

 

[Handruin]

I've also been trying to find that sweet spot to retire my three dual xeon systems with much more power efficient systems. I haven't found anything that checks off all the boxes yet.

 

[LunarMist]

I just noticed that AMD seems to have bumped power thresholds on next-gen desktop CPUs. Looks like 170W and 105W instead of 105W and 65W like we've had up to now. I don't particularly like this development, but maybe it'll improve overall stability.

The 7900x and 7950X were 170W in 2022. It's nothing new for AM5 12/16 cored parts.

Zen 4 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the Zen 5 is the same power for better performance, that's not a bad thing.

 

[Handruin]

An important part of the power conversation is also how well these newer CPUs idle in the various C-States. I could live with a 170W CPU if I knew I could get a 5-10W idle out of it for most of the time.

 

[LunarMist]

My 7950x Raphael CPU is pulling about 25-28W min. according to the CoreTemps.

 

[Mercutio]

Apparently, a lot can be done to lower idle power, especially by disabling USB 3, Wifi and Audio if you aren't using those things. It's very possible LM's setup might still be on the high side. Of course, I'm going to slap a Broadcom 9600e and a ConnectX 3 in whatever I build so if it's still only running 25W at idle, I'll be speechless.

B650 mATX might be just the ticket, though. A lot of them support 3x m.2 and have two full length PCIe slots.

 

[LunarMist]

I was just mentioning what the software says about the CPU power. The main computer uses about 127W at idle per the clamped meter. There is a full complement of devices in there.

 

[Mercutio]

AMD released desktop and notebook Ryzen 8000-series Pro CPUs this week. They look basically the same as the 8x00G models but AMD says they have NeuralPUs for AI workloads. I'm not sure if that's a pile of marketing or something real and useful, but it is a move forward. This might make the next batch of Beelink systems I buy more interesting.

 

[LunarMist]

Presumably AI will be fully integrated into Win 12 as a baseline hardware requirement.