Ryzen

[CougTek]

Do you think that AMD has a problem with the Zen 5? The Zen 4 was back in 2022 and intel is seemingly developing more CPUs more often.

I think that what's driving the schedule at AMD is the server market. They are so far ahead of what Intel offers at the moment that they don't need to hurry before introducing a new architecture. Zen5 server chips will be out in time to compete with Intel's Granite Rapids (6th gen Xeon), but until then, there's no need to launch a new generation since 4th gen Epyc still beats 5th gen Xeon in most metrics.

Also, for the mobile market, anything on Zen4 is still more efficient than whatever Intel has today. They might not have the absolute top performance, but what AMD's processors do, they do it with less power than Intel's latest generation can at a similar level.

 

[LunarMist]

INtel has about 75% of the x86-64 laptop market since 2020, so obviously AMD still has a long way to go.
Maybe we will have a better Tyzen 5 for laptops in Q1 2025, but by then iNtel will have their 15th gen CPUS/GPUs.
I'm still awaiting the verdict on whether Ryzen 5 will have SMP or some kind of AMP arrangement like the INtel and Arms/Apples systems.

 

[Mercutio]

Do you think that AMD has a problem with the Zen 5? The Zen 4 was back in 2022 and intel is seemingly developing more CPUs more often.

Intel has been and still is playing the same game basically since 8th generation: Release a new CPU every year with high enough power requirements for a high end CPU to clock 100MHz faster than last year's model. Since 12th gen, they've added the E-cores nonsense to the mix and a DDR5 controller. That's also a whoopdefuck, but people keep buying 300W i9-whatever CPUs, so Intel keeps making new ones.

AMD is getting the benefit of a die shrink with Granite Ridge. Hopefully that will reign in the heat somewhat. Or maybe they'll have an updated heat spreader for Ryzen 9000, so it least cooling it won't be quite as crazy.

Everything I've read about Granite Ridge and Strix Point says that AMD is sticking with full fat SMP for desktop and mobile.

 

[LunarMist]

I would be stoked if the Granites can work in my current X670E.

 

[Mercutio]

Rumors say it's AM5, which suggests you'll just need a BIOS update. I suspect we'd probably be hearing about it A LOT if AMD did a one-generation CPU socket. AMD also just released a new line of low end Ryzen 5000XTs, just in case you're still rocking an A320 with an old Ryzen 3 on it.

 

[LunarMist]

The oldest Ryzens I use is the 5950x, which is in a secondary computer. I'll have to decide if it is worth a $400 board to reuse the 7950X and maybe another OS is necessary (I cannot recall). I only have a spare 32GB of DDR5, so it would have less RAM than the 5950X.
I might just replace the 7950X with a 9950X or whatever and call it a day. However, I'd be more inclined to upgrade if there is a new and better AM5 mainboard, but it means rebuilding two machines rather than just dropping in one CPU. The hassle factor is huge for me, especially with the cramped computer/NAS configuration.

 

[Mercutio]

The 7000-series desktops didn't seem that much better than the high end of the 5000s, and I still feel like I made a good choice to hold off.

Speaking to the idea that Granite Ridge will be socket compatible, Asus is apparently updating its AM5 boards with firmware support for larger DDR5 modules and newer CPUs. I suppose you might get more PCIe 5 lanes on a newer motherboard but I doubt there's a pressing need to upgrade from your current motherboard, either.

 

[LunarMist]

I have not had enough PCIe lanes since Hasbors E. The speed is not very important to me.
More RAM would be nice if the slow boot speed will not be worse.

 

[jtr1962]

The 7000-series desktops didn't seem that much better than the high end of the 5000s, and I still feel like I made a good choice to hold off.

Speaking to the idea that Granite Ridge will be socket compatible, Asus is apparently updating its AM5 boards with firmware support for larger DDR5 modules and newer CPUs. I suppose you might get more PCIe 5 lanes on a newer motherboard but I doubt there's a pressing need to upgrade from your current motherboard, either.

For me personally, it seems like there's 5 years between noticeable differences, but at least a decade between differences which are large enough to merit a hardware upgrade. My last desktop hardware upgrade was to the A10-7870K about 5 years ago. Comparing this to the i7-13700H laptop I bought recently, yes, the differences are quite noticeable, but I'm still in no big hurry to upgrade my desktop. Part of the reason is there would be no Windows 7 drivers for newer hardware. I'm just not in the mood to start fresh with a new O/S. And frankly I haven't used a program yet where my current desktop is lacking in computing horsepower. Maybe in another 5 years....

Moore's Law has slowed down quite a bit. It used to be there were dramatic differences between new hardware and 2-year old hardware. Those days are gone, barring some major new development. Even then, if you're not using software which takes advantage of the newer hardware, there's not much point to upgrading unless it happens to break.

 

[LunarMist]

If your workloads are sensitive to single-threaded performance, then the difference between 3950X->5950X->7950X was significant each time, around 20-25%. In a period of about 3 years the performance improvement per core was >50% and multithreaded was >60%. That was huge and maybe we won't see that rate for a while in the old x86-64.
For me the improvement from X570 to X670E in available mainboards was almost more of a big deal, but not specifically a CPU issue.

 

[sedrosken]

Using a cast-off Pavilion laptop for the summer to keep my electric bill from getting too crazy, it's got a R5-4500U in it with I think Vega 8? I'm pretty suitably impressed. Build quality is typical HP consumer-grade slop but the cooler is adequate for it and it had a single 16GB stick that won't be difficult to find a matched pair to for dual channel. It's already impressing me in single channel mode. 6c/6t Zen2 with a max turbo of 4GHz within ~15W, and it can sustain about 3GHz on all cores with the iGP running full blast too, and it's barely cracking 75 degrees.

Bear in mind that the second stick of RAM I paid all of 30 bucks for is all the money I've sunk into this. I find it difficult to complain about, even on Windows 11.

 

[LunarMist]

The 4500U looks be comparable to the i5-1145G7 of that era (~4 years ago). The cooling system is crucial to performance and if that is in a larger and heavier laptop it will perform better after the first 30 seconds than the same CPU in a T&L laptop.

I wish I could use a laptop at home, but the new ones cannot be turned on by ethernets WOL.

 

[Mercutio]

I just noticed that AMD seems to have bumped power thresholds on next-gen desktop CPUs. Looks like 170W and 105W instead of 105W and 65W like we've had up to now. I don't particularly like this development, but maybe it'll improve overall stability.

Speaking of power costs, my plan is to retire the dual Xeon I use as a file server and hypervisor before July hits, specifically to lower the overall amount of heat I'm creating for my apartment. In a perfect world, I'd be able to replace it with my Threadripper, but I don't think I'll have a new desktop at that point, which is one of the reasons I'm looking at my options for a low power platform to use in the meantime. Preferably something I can sell down the road.

 

[Handruin]

I've also been trying to find that sweet spot to retire my three dual xeon systems with much more power efficient systems. I haven't found anything that checks off all the boxes yet.

 

[LunarMist]

I just noticed that AMD seems to have bumped power thresholds on next-gen desktop CPUs. Looks like 170W and 105W instead of 105W and 65W like we've had up to now. I don't particularly like this development, but maybe it'll improve overall stability.

The 7900x and 7950X were 170W in 2022. It's nothing new for AM5 12/16 cored parts.

Zen 4 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the Zen 5 is the same power for better performance, that's not a bad thing.

 

[Handruin]

An important part of the power conversation is also how well these newer CPUs idle in the various C-States. I could live with a 170W CPU if I knew I could get a 5-10W idle out of it for most of the time.

 

[LunarMist]

My 7950x Raphael CPU is pulling about 25-28W min. according to the CoreTemps.

 

[Mercutio]

Apparently, a lot can be done to lower idle power, especially by disabling USB 3, Wifi and Audio if you aren't using those things. It's very possible LM's setup might still be on the high side. Of course, I'm going to slap a Broadcom 9600e and a ConnectX 3 in whatever I build so if it's still only running 25W at idle, I'll be speechless.

B650 mATX might be just the ticket, though. A lot of them support 3x m.2 and have two full length PCIe slots.

 

[LunarMist]

I was just mentioning what the software says about the CPU power. The main computer uses about 127W at idle per the clamped meter. There is a full complement of devices in there.

 

[Mercutio]

AMD released desktop and notebook Ryzen 8000-series Pro CPUs this week. They look basically the same as the 8x00G models but AMD says they have NeuralPUs for AI workloads. I'm not sure if that's a pile of marketing or something real and useful, but it is a move forward. This might make the next batch of Beelink systems I buy more interesting.

 

[LunarMist]

Presumably AI will be fully integrated into Win 12 as a baseline hardware requirement.

 

[LunarMist]

Now it is being reported that AMD is not supporting Windows 10 with the Zen 5, even though 10 is supposed to be good until 2025. The excuse is the need for 11 with AI, but that should not apply to the 9900 series desktop CPUs that have no NPU. And it's not like we need 11 for AMP.

 

[sedrosken]

Are you at all surprised? Most folks building a new computer in 2024 are not going to be running Windows 10 on it. 10 is most of ten years old at this point. I'm kind of surprised they supported 10 on Zen4 considering 11 was out by the launch.

 

[LunarMist]

Not really. I was hoping to just upgrade the CPU from the Zen 4 to Zen 5 with simply a BIOS update for the X670E. If I have to install a new OS, new programs, figure out a usage model, etc. then it's not economically worthwhile, especially the high amount of my time. If AMD is therefore not viable, then it's time to see what iNtel Arrow Lake and APPLE will have by late 2025.

 

[Mercutio]

Don't panic. "Not supported" does NOT mean things won't work, only that AMD isn't going to do the work to help anyone. Since there's no difference between drivers on 10 and 11, you may have to manually edit a .INF for have to extract files out of the the Ryzen Master install package. This has been a personal headache for me for a long while, since a lot of graphics hardware and many NICs aren't supposed to work with Windows Server releases.

The bigger issue is that there's a limit to how much longer application vendors are going to support 10 after Microsoft drops it. Given the direction of things, Windows 12 might not be an acceptable alternative.

 

[LunarMist]

I know you IT folks install OS/applocations like a biological function, buy I really try to avoid installations as much as possible. I figure in time, suffering, and software cost it's worth at least $1000 for me to avoid an installation. If I drop a new Granite Ridges CPU into the AM5 sicket where the 7950x is now, is it correct that the computer won't even boot into Win 10?

 

[Mercutio]

I know you IT folks install OS/applocations like a biological function, buy I really try to avoid installations as much as possible. I figure in time, suffering, and software cost it's worth at least $1000 for me to avoid an installation. If I drop a new Granite Ridges CPU into the AM5 sicket where the 7950x is now, is it correct that the computer won't even boot into Win 10?

I sincerely doubt that will be the problem.
More than likely, the issue you'll run in to is that the driver installation packages for your motherboard will refuse to run as straight up executables. That'll be the AMD Radeon-whatever driver for the CPU's integrated graphics; Ryzen Master, the chipset drivers; and/or the storage drivers. The devices on your motherboard won't have changed, so we know that things like storage and USB will be whatever they were before. We don't have a circumstance where AMD is switching to a P/E-core deal like Intel did.

When AMD launched Ryzen 3000, it didn't provide Windows 7 support and just like Windows 10, there are die-hards who have said they're never going to change. That just meant I had to do some extra work to get a new Windows 7 install up and running. It was not impossible, just obnoxious, specifically because the installer didn't recognize USB devices until the install was finished.

The solution was to open the driver installers using an archive extractor like 7zip, grab the files I needed and change a line in a couple INF files.

You will probably have to flash a firmware update to install the new CPU, but your existing Windows 10 install isn't going to stop working with your current CPU. You will probably have to find workarounds for ( ? ) entries in Device Manager if you switch CPUs. It's not the end of the world.

 

[jtr1962]

When AMD launched Ryzen 3000, it didn't provide Windows 7 support and just like Windows 10, there are die-hards who have said they're never going to change. That just meant I had to do some extra work to get a new Windows 7 install up and running. It was not impossible, just obnoxious, specifically because the installer didn't recognize USB devices until the install was finished.

Just wondering if it would be remotely possible to install Win 7 on a modern system with, say, a Ryzen 8000G?

 

[Mercutio]

Probably, if your motherboard at least has one PS/2 port. There are definitely people who have 7 working on 5000-series CPUs.

 

[LunarMist]

It probably depends on how Win 7 handles the NPU and GPU. I really would just use 10 at this point.

 

[Mercutio]

There's some indication that nVidia is planning a partnership with MediaTek to make laptop and desktop class CPUs that might compete with Qualcomm / Intel / AMD. I'm not sure if we're talking about ARM or x86, but Mediatek's ARM SoCs are notable for being highly competitive with Qualcomm's for CPU-bound task but lacking in those that would use a GPU and nVidia is worth more than some small European countries right now and just looking for something to do with all of that.

There was a little bit of news about it last fall but this is being brought up again in the lead-up to Compudex 2024. If this is so, it'll be a very interesting state of affairs.

 

[sedrosken]

That has a potential to be a very potent combo and a hell of a Qualcomm exclusivity/monopoly breaker. In fact, with that, I'd be concerned about the opposite -- this MediaTek/nVidia partnership becoming the default Windows/ARM configuration. Especially since IIRC it still remains to be seen how the Mali GPU drivers for Windows really handle. Hmm, maybe some new Tegra SoCs? I wonder what this would imply for the Switch 2 or if that hardware is already set in stone. Given they're teasing an announcement for it, I wonder if it's too late for any moves made to affect that.

 

[jtr1962]

If MediaTk/Nvidia can come out with an APU which also has some fast, dedicated VRAM that would be a winning combo. A big bottleneck for iGPUs is the fact they use system RAM, not dedicated, much faster VRAM. Even a relatively small amount (i.e. a few hundred MB) of VRAM in the same package as the CPU/GPU could help things immensely.

 

[LunarMist]

Didn't Apple fix that bottleneck already?

 

[Mercutio]

Didn't Apple fix that bottleneck already?

Apple's architecture doesn't differentiate between system RAM and GPU RAM. The GPU just takes what it needs from the overall pool of what's available. The more RAM you have, the better all of that is going to work.

 

[LunarMist]

But they have it working well, quite fast enough and efficient. I'm sure it's more than adequate for JTR.

 

[Mercutio]

Not sure if anyone cares, but I'm seeing Ryzen 7500f CPUs on AliExpress for $125, with entry level motherboards around the $100 mark. I was planning to build someone an AM4 system this week, but if the only extra cost is ddr4 vs ddr5, I might as well go AM5.

Took long enough.

 

[Chewy509]

Didn't Apple fix that bottleneck already?

For the most part, yes, by increasing the width of the memory bus and bringing the memory chips onto the CPU package (which allows higher MT's).
Case in point:

• The M2 Max is capable of 400GB/s.
• The M2 Ultra doubles that to 800GB/s.
• Intel 12th Gen or Ryzen 7000 series with dual channel DDR5-8000, can do 128GB/s. (note DDR5-8000 = 64GB/s, DDR5-6000 = 48GB/s, DDR5-7200. = 57.6GB/s).
• Looking at Epyc's or Xeons with quad-channel memory can push this to 256GB/s.

An RTX 4070 IIRC has about 504GB/s and a RTX3060 has about 360GB/s of memory bandwidth. (the RTX3080 and RTX4090 are 912GB/s and 1008GB/s respectively).

The obvious downside to Apple Silicon is the non-upgradable memory.

From my own testing the M2 Max in gaming performance runs between the RTX3060 and RTX3060Ti (sometime better, sometimes worse depending on the game, the graphical API it's using, how much work has been put into optimising it for Mac, and so on). For most gamers, this level of performance is 'good enough'. (The steam hardware survey has nVidia xx60 series (3060, 2060, and so on) or AMD equivalent cards in the top 10 positions).

 

[LunarMist]

Not sure if anyone cares, but I'm seeing Ryzen 7500f CPUs on AliExpress for $125, with entry level motherboards around the $100 mark. I was planning to build someone an AM4 system this week, but if the only extra cost is ddr4 vs ddr5, I might as well go AM5.

Took long enough.

I don't understand why are you buying some weird low-end CPUs from the PRC.

 

[Mercutio]

I don't understand why are you buying some weird low-end CPUs from the PRC.

Up to now, there have been pricing barriers to entry on AM5 CPUs; there hasn't been a credible budget CPU, AM5 motherboards were mostly premium SKUs and DDR5 is of course still kind of expensive. I am excited to see that I can finally get a mainstream desktop out the door for around $600. The 7500f does NOT ship with an integrated GPU, but it does compare favorably to a 5700X that has two more cores and it has a meaningful upgrade path. Either way, I'd probably give that system an AMD RX 580, GTX 1070 or A380, which are all right around $100.