Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I'm under the impression that Zen 6 products will integrate more/better GPU cores and offer better (yawn) NPU capabilities. Hard to say where they'll be with actual performance.
Ryzen
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I'm sure they will, but the CPU cores need to improve also. I still feel that the single-threaded speed will always be important.
If AMD and iNtel become lame-os then I will have to reconsider the 2026 cycle, but after the Olypicams.
In the short term I will live with the old-school AM5 600 series chipsets and continue with minor updates to storage, etc.
fb
Storage is cool
Single threaded performance is important, especially for my favourite, SQL Server where I (for my workload) tend to buy the minimum but fastest cores available. But in the general server space it's usually more about density and power consumption, and 96 -> 128 cores per socket is a decent step.
A virtualized 96/128 core machine would probably make a fine test server where it's reasonable inexpensive to setup complete lab/test environments (which is sometimes skipped in some organisations.)
A virtualized 96/128 core machine would probably make a fine test server where it's reasonable inexpensive to setup complete lab/test environments (which is sometimes skipped in some organisations.)
ddrueding
Fixture
There's also some cost savings from keeping your lab in one chassis. Not needing physical high-speed networking or SAN/NAS.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I think we're hitting frequency limits again, at least within the range of responsible thermals. It's bad news for gamers unless we're saved by another breakthrough in materials science. The early 2000s gave us multiple cores as a performance path past the 4GHz barrier, but we know that getting a 3 or 2nm process isn't going to completely change the world.
Intel did the thing before where it let thermals get absolutely out of control in the name of making the claim that it still had fast processors. I think that's what we're getting to again. And I don't know what way out we have open to us, especially since 25-ish years of commonplace access to SMP systems hasn't been as much of a help as all of us would like. I don't think anyone in x86-land is really experimenting with non-unified memory, which can reduce RAM latency, but that points toward a move to non-socketed RAM as well.
I'm a little annoyed that I couldn't quite swing an AM5 ITX build on a $500 budget yet. I got pretty close using a Ryzen 5 8500G, but trying to get more than 16GB of brand name DDR5 made it unprofitable. A Ryzen 5700G is only barely slower than the 8500G, but being able to use DDR4 is really what saved me. Hopefully, those Zen 4 products will see another price cut in a couple weeks and we'll at last have budget AM5 systems.
Intel did the thing before where it let thermals get absolutely out of control in the name of making the claim that it still had fast processors. I think that's what we're getting to again. And I don't know what way out we have open to us, especially since 25-ish years of commonplace access to SMP systems hasn't been as much of a help as all of us would like. I don't think anyone in x86-land is really experimenting with non-unified memory, which can reduce RAM latency, but that points toward a move to non-socketed RAM as well.
I'm a little annoyed that I couldn't quite swing an AM5 ITX build on a $500 budget yet. I got pretty close using a Ryzen 5 8500G, but trying to get more than 16GB of brand name DDR5 made it unprofitable. A Ryzen 5700G is only barely slower than the 8500G, but being able to use DDR4 is really what saved me. Hopefully, those Zen 4 products will see another price cut in a couple weeks and we'll at last have budget AM5 systems.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I'm just trying to source parts. Still chasing a budget AM5 build.
I am happy that people are asking for systems again. For the time being, my best advice for four year old AM4 owners is just to get a better AM4 though.
I am happy that people are asking for systems again. For the time being, my best advice for four year old AM4 owners is just to get a better AM4 though.
Four years ago was just before the 5950X, so maybe it was the 3950X. I suppose the 5900XT is the same part as the 5950X with a new name. But if someone has waited all this time and the AM5 has been extended to 2027, then it makes more sense to move up to a Zen 5. I wonder if you can crank up a 9700X to something like 90W to get more out of it.
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Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
These are people have 2700x or 3700xes, or maybe something around an i5-9500.
The Prices are good now.
Hail the BrainSlug was so far off base.
wccftech.com
Hail the BrainSlug was so far off base.
- Ryzen 9 9950X - $BS 499
- Ryzen 9 9900X - $BS 399
- Ryzen 7 9700X - $BS 299
- Ryzen 5 9600X - $BS 229
Alleged AMD Ryzen 9000 "Zen 5" Desktop CPU Prices Revealed: 9950X $499, 9900X $399, 9700X $299, 9600X $229
Alleged prices of AMD's Ryzen 9000 "Zen 5" Desktop CPUs have been revealed & it may look like the top 9950X chip would top out at $499 US.
wccftech.com
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ddrueding
Fixture
Honestly at least some of that pricing difference could be a change in response to Intel screwing up so badly. There is less competition than anticipated even 6 weeks ago.
ddrueding
Fixture
Reviews for the 9700X and 9600X are out. Seems that for games the last gen "X3D" chips are still winners both in terms of performance and power consumption. Looking forward to the 9950X3D when that comes out.
Also seems there is quite a bit of room in these chips for overclocking and playing with the power budget.
Also seems there is quite a bit of room in these chips for overclocking and playing with the power budget.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
To put it another way, if you're coming from anything other than Zen4 / 14th gen Intel, you're getting a lot of performance at dramatically lowered power budgets compared to what Zen 4 and recent-ish Intel have been doing. You can do overclocking if you can be bothered to mess with it. All the gamers are commenting about how these guys don't game any better, but even if they did, who gives a shit? Any gain at all is just going to go to feeding a GPU a bit more and that's the true measure of gamer E-peen anyway.
We already knew the message was going to be better performance/watt and that's what was delivered. Is that really so bad?
We already knew the message was going to be better performance/watt and that's what was delivered. Is that really so bad?
Unless you are off the grids or have a dinky machine, who cares much about power in a desktop system until you get to the top models? The GPU uses far more power anyways if I understand the game plays. I just want the 9700X to ramp up to high power when needed without needing a PhD of OC.
I read this article, which is rather grim. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-7-9700x/29.html
Of course people online are so focused on the game playing. We'll have to see if the 9950X is anything, but I expect it will land like a brick.
I read this article, which is rather grim. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-7-9700x/29.html
Of course people online are so focused on the game playing. We'll have to see if the 9950X is anything, but I expect it will land like a brick.
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sedrosken
Florida Man
I care about power budgets because I happen to pay my own electric bill, Lunar.
If I can get more done in less power used, that's money saved and money earned. Granted, the sorts of differences you'd actually see between my 5700X and one of these wouldn't even pay for the upgrade, but it's still worth considering.I'm well aware my GPU uses over twice the power of my CPU -- I'm not thrilled about that either, but they don't exactly make performant low-power cards anymore. An APU isn't quite up to the task of driving new games at 1440p144 at any detail settings. Anything below 150W is horrifically hamstrung in many ways if you're not just condemning yourself to a 1030 anyway. It seems like they don't even care to try outside the enterprise market with Quadros, but you are P A Y I N G for those, so it's not a realistic scenario either.
Then enable PBO, give it a number it can't exceed, and leave it alone. It'll do the work for you.
It is my understanding that the idle power does not increase if the voltage is well controlled. The system only uses full power when it is needed under high load. The video cards do the same as you know.
You can always reduce the power also, but it's nearly pointless on those 65W CPUs.
I wonder if there will be a 9000G series with perhaps 890M graphics.
You can always reduce the power also, but it's nearly pointless on those 65W CPUs.
I wonder if there will be a 9000G series with perhaps 890M graphics.
I'm all for power efficiency gains but the reality is that any upgrade to a new CPU with better efficiency will take a decade or longer to break even on the electricity savings so it's not a huge selling point for the avg home user, at least for an upgrade perspective.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
It's not the electrical savings so much as the ability to use a slower fan speed to lower noise levels. Or better yet, if you can passively cool it.
My usual builds have the two CPU fans and the nearby rear case fan all controlled by the CPU temperature. All three fans are Nocturnal and work well over the ranges with PWM control. They are quiet most of the time, but ramp up when the CPU is under load (there is a delay to prevent hysteresis). My notes for the 7950X CPU fans are from 20%/20°C to 50%/50°C to 100%/70°C. Only one fan spinning is enough at low-medium power, but I prefer two fans on two separate 4-pin sockets to mitigate stalls and failures.
You can buy the fanless NH-P1 if you want, but the NSPR is 42 and decent case ventilation is necessary.
You can buy the fanless NH-P1 if you want, but the NSPR is 42 and decent case ventilation is necessary.
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ddrueding
Fixture
AMD is lucky that no one who pays attention is buying an Intel chip right now.
Well somebody bought a bunch of computers at work this year that are all iNtel. I am regular laptop mandatory and have two options, Lendova X1 style or MS Surface style. Some home office users can get desktops, but I don't think any are AMD either. The MS uses some funkified power supply and has limited ports so I reject it every time. Maybe Dell sells a lot of AMD systems?
I'm committed to rebuilding a system prior to the holidays so either I keep the 7950X and buy another AM5 CPU or buy the 9950X and put the 7950X in the upgrade. If I did not feel compelled, then maybe I'd save my money for a new APPLE in 2025.
I'm committed to rebuilding a system prior to the holidays so either I keep the 7950X and buy another AM5 CPU or buy the 9950X and put the 7950X in the upgrade. If I did not feel compelled, then maybe I'd save my money for a new APPLE in 2025.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
M-series hardware is just e-waste with better marketing. The same bullshit that Apple fans level at Chromebooks applies just as well to every single thing Apple has made in the last four years, even if it says "Studio" on it and costs as much as a decent used car.
Credit where credit is do: the exceptions are the generally useful wheels for Mac Pros and the $1000 monitor stand. Those will continue to be useful as wheels and a monitor stand years after Apple fades beyond the point of irrelevance, even if they're a deeply shitty investment.
Credit where credit is do: the exceptions are the generally useful wheels for Mac Pros and the $1000 monitor stand. Those will continue to be useful as wheels and a monitor stand years after Apple fades beyond the point of irrelevance, even if they're a deeply shitty investment.
I thought APPLE was gaining the marketing shares for client computers in the 2020s, so is not likely to fade away. iNtel is still about 3:1 over AMD for the Windows client systems.
It seems to me that most all computer hardware would be depreciated down to zero in 5 years or less, or is that incorrect?
It seems to me that most all computer hardware would be depreciated down to zero in 5 years or less, or is that incorrect?
5 years seems pretty reasonable. Most companies like to wait 3-5 years or longer before giving upgrades on individual systems.
Given what we're even seeing in this thread with AMD, the gains are getting smaller and smaller so there's less of a reason to upgrade unless there's very specific needs like in your case where it can help your efficiency. In my case, I've not needed to upgrade yet from a 3950 even though there been some good improvements.
Given what we're even seeing in this thread with AMD, the gains are getting smaller and smaller so there's less of a reason to upgrade unless there's very specific needs like in your case where it can help your efficiency. In my case, I've not needed to upgrade yet from a 3950 even though there been some good improvements.
sedrosken
Florida Man
AMD's 'Sinkclose' vulnerability affects hundreds of millions of processors, enables data theft — AMD begins patching issue in critical chip lines, more to follow
Almost cannot be fixed, say researchers.
Goddamn it.
To be fair, needing a compromised kernel to take advantage of the vulnerability... that's a high bar to clear as it is. Still terrible news, though.
The minute I started learning about SMM and what the various management engines are actually capable of, I kind of considered them eldritch abhominations. Turns out I was right to.
The worst news of the bunch (and the worst look they could have since we're still clowning on Intel for their woes) apparently AMD doesn't plan to fix anything older than the Ryzen 5000 series, and that much is because they're still selling them, I'm guessing.
A disturbing implication one of the comments explored was a shady reseller deliberately infecting chips before selling them -- bam, instant stealth-mode rootkits to as many machines as you can sell the chips for.
Edit: I'm reading into this wrong on the last bit, I think -- a source I read says the PSP firmware is read-only and any changes are flashed as part of the system firmware or loaded by the operating system as part of a microcode package. Still pretty nasty as they could infect boards' firmware and for the average end-user it'd be a brick wall to try to fix.
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jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
I'm puzzled here. They claim you can infect a system by installing a CPU. I was under the impression CPUs have no non-volatile memory, so how can a virus be installed in one?
I don't care about security, but performance. I don't want an patch that slows the computer down. Is there any way to avoid it?AMD's 'Sinkclose' vulnerability affects hundreds of millions of processors, enables data theft — AMD begins patching issue in critical chip lines, more to follow
Almost cannot be fixed, say researchers.www.tomshardware.com
Goddamn it.
To be fair, needing a compromised kernel to take advantage of the vulnerability... that's a high bar to clear as it is. Still terrible news, though.
The minute I started learning about SMM and what the various management engines are actually capable of, I kind of considered them eldritch abhominations. Turns out I was right to.
The worst news of the bunch (and the worst look they could have since we're still clowning on Intel for their woes) apparently AMD doesn't plan to fix anything older than the Ryzen 5000 series, and that much is because they're still selling them, I'm guessing.
A disturbing implication one of the comments explored was a shady reseller deliberately infecting chips before selling them -- bam, instant stealth-mode rootkits to as many machines as you can sell the chips for.
Edit: I'm reading into this wrong on the last bit, I think -- a source I read says the PSP firmware is read-only and any changes are flashed as part of the system firmware or loaded by the operating system as part of a microcode package. Still pretty nasty as they could infect boards' firmware and for the average end-user it'd be a brick wall to try to fix.
I'm still not seeing who is installing this stuff and getting into the colonel.
If I understand correctly the PSP is like the iNtel ME and that has it's own tiny FW that can be updated. I guess the problem is that there is not such an easy way to prevent that PSP from screwing up. I don't think this risk concept is new at all.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
The answer is "it depends" of course. One thing that I will say is that it's very possible to have a system live a very long and productive life because we don't HAVE to buy the computer in its for-all-time configuration. General purpose computers can be upgraded and for me there's no greater concern that available internal storage.
I will say that my OG i7-980 is still being used out in the world. So is my Haswell-E PC. Both of them were brought to reasonably modern standards and allowed to carry on after I retired them and so they are.
Apple of course doesn't sell devices that way. They demand people buy new ones and with a configuration that can never be improved nor carried forward as standards change. This makes those 8GB/128GB minimal configurations insulting. Some poor bastard will keep trying to use them LONG after there's any use to be had with 8GB. That massively expensive Studio Mac isn't really any better though. Unless someone was fortunate enough to buy the maxed out config, it's going to see a premature end because someone couldn't afford to buy the extra 64GB it needed to be as useful long term as it could.
I'm willing to excuse that in a $200 Chromebook but I have a harder time writing it off for what's supposed to be a personal computer. Apple has moved on to selling one size fits some appliances instead.
I definitely understand your points about Apple and don't contest them. I would add that the large majority of people buying non-apple devices from any of the other companies (Lenovo, Asus, Microsoft, etc) all fall into the same positions and rarely to never upgrade their device to extend its life anyway. They also likely buy minimal specs as well and when it comes time to upgrade, the places offering upgrades make it less appealing by recommend they spend that money on a new system.
We, here, are the exception of course, because we like inflicting the pain of upgrades and tinkering because we can add the value.
There's also the times when I don't want to deal with that nonsense. When I got my M1 MBP just after it released in Nov 2020, the experience has been surprisingly fantastic over the past almost 4 years. I'm fortunate enough to have been able to spec it to a higher level, but compared to any of my other windows laptops, it's done everything better and it's been far more stable and reliable with incredible battery life.
This has been the first time I've had a laptop device I don't curse at or get angry with. It goes to sleep perfectly, it wakes up fine every time. I never think about having to reboot it. I barely think about having to charge it. Cameras always work when needed, apps respond instantly. All the USBC ports recognize devices.
Every other laptop ALWAYS has some kind of quirk or frustrating behavior that made me want to snap it in two. That problem is gone now, and I find it's something I really value.
We, here, are the exception of course, because we like inflicting the pain of upgrades and tinkering because we can add the value.
There's also the times when I don't want to deal with that nonsense. When I got my M1 MBP just after it released in Nov 2020, the experience has been surprisingly fantastic over the past almost 4 years. I'm fortunate enough to have been able to spec it to a higher level, but compared to any of my other windows laptops, it's done everything better and it's been far more stable and reliable with incredible battery life.
This has been the first time I've had a laptop device I don't curse at or get angry with. It goes to sleep perfectly, it wakes up fine every time. I never think about having to reboot it. I barely think about having to charge it. Cameras always work when needed, apps respond instantly. All the USBC ports recognize devices.
Every other laptop ALWAYS has some kind of quirk or frustrating behavior that made me want to snap it in two. That problem is gone now, and I find it's something I really value.
I suppose some people would be horrified at what I usually dispose. I put the 3950X and other components (DDR4/570X board/Nocturnals D14) in storage about 18 months ago and will dispose of that eventually. Typically I would be decommissioning the old 5950X and X570 board with 64GB in August, but it's not worth the hassle of rebuilding that system into an AM5. Besides, I have a special use for the old 7950X CPU rather than in a secondary machine. I've had a few systems in use for 5 years, but it's not ideal. The single-player speed is usually more important to me than speed on all cores since the higher grades of modern CPUs have plenty already. That's still a driving force to upgrade. I know you deal with low-end users that just need something to work for many years, even if slowly, and don't care what is "under the hood."
APPLE is very appealing to normal people that have a few extra bucks for nice products and spend their time productively outside of using the computer as a tool. It's not the bargain basement machine and I understand the argument that the lesser APPLEs are not a good value.
The limited, proprietary SSDs and bulk/weight are holding me back from APPLE laptops. I envision the laptop being broken and there would be no easy way to extract the SSDs for data retrieval.
The last time I checked the cost would be about $6000 for the 14" model with 8TB and that is 1x8TB. I spend less than one month per year on a personal laptop, so my needs are very specific and I cannot justify the APPLE cost or heavy weight when I can get a number of decent 14" laptops for about $1500 and replace the SSD(s) with 2x4TB or 1x8TB for less than a grand.
sedrosken
Florida Man
That's exactly the case, but I don't think it can be updated directly -- if I'm understanding this correctly, and I may not be, I believe that the PSP gets updated as part of microcode loading either by system firmware or as a binary blob by the operating system as it boots.
This likely wouldn't affect you as the kernel vulnerability is a big ask, my concern was primarily for the secondhand market because deliberately infecting system boards would be relatively trivial and to a normal user they'd have no way of even knowing their system's been hijacked. And this aspect wouldn't concern you either because you don't buy things secondhand.
There will not be a way to avoid the patch. My guess is mitigations will be shipping as part of non-optional (on Windows, anyway) microcode updates that load whether you want them or not. I also don't figure the mitigation will carry a severe speed penalty as the article likely would have mentioned if it was.
I suppose they will use belts and suspenders with Windows and the firmwares. If I understand all that correctly, there might be a slight startup delay, but not a constant penalty like with the Meltdown/Spectre vulnerability. The impact is all through the internet, is that right?
I agree for your requirements it's a very costly option and probably not the best solution. For me a 14", M1 Max, 32GB RAM, and a 1TB SSD was a perfect fit for the use cases I had in mind. I use mine for more dev-focused (code, containers, 3d printing, etc) and system admin access/maintenance of remote systems that works well. I don't need lots of space because I just store things on my NAS.
Somehow I thought that was for work or is it not?
I'm flipping back to internal storage. All of my NAS just seem too slow for all but backups. Maybe if I could justify a TB NAS with SSDs and also connect it with the X870E series, but that is over $10K.
4 days are remaining to ZEN Part 5...
I'm flipping back to internal storage. All of my NAS just seem too slow for all but backups. Maybe if I could justify a TB NAS with SSDs and also connect it with the X870E series, but that is over $10K.
4 days are remaining to ZEN Part 5...