Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
As yet another example of stunning inconsistency, Metro Apps can't be uninstalled from Programs and Features or from the Microsoft Store app.
Windows 8
- Thread starter Bozo
- Start date
ddrueding
Fixture
I've managed to deploy quite a few copies of Win8 (and run it myself at home) without needing to know a thing about Metro or their apps. I just install Start8 and pretend the thing doesn't exist.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
For the record, I wasn't happy with Classic Shell and ended up uninstalling it. Based on Ddrueding's recommendation, I tried Start-8 (from Stardock) and it's much better. In fact, it's perfect. Excellent software and well worth $5.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
What's wrong with Classic Shell?
The default is to provide a Windows 98-style start, but in its own settings, it can be switched to an XP or Vista-style start experience pretty easily.
The default is to provide a Windows 98-style start, but in its own settings, it can be switched to an XP or Vista-style start experience pretty easily.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
Quite right, Lunar. I trialled Start8 and it looks slick, but Classic Shell is much, much better overall. In a perfect world, we could have the functionality of Classic Shell married to the high-quality visual finish of Start8.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
When starting Window 8 the first screen that comes up is a picture with a gigantic clock on the left side. Anyone know how to skip the window and go straight to the log on screen?
fb
Storage is cool
Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete to logon, just like in the good old days.
ddrueding
Fixture
Or use Start8 and configure it to go straight to the desktop.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
For any version of Windows 8, if you configure a program to run automatically on login via Task Scheduler, you can skip straight to the desktop as well.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
I am trying to get it to boot and go straight to the login screen.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Open gpedit
Go to Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Control Panel > Personalization
Choose "Do not display the lock screen" and change it to enabled.
Go to Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Control Panel > Personalization
Choose "Do not display the lock screen" and change it to enabled.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
Thanks Merc. Actually I didn't know what that screen was called so I was really in the dark.:frusty:
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
That's where all the fancy IT Trainer learnin' comes in handy. 
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
Nope, certainly not waiting for MS to come up with a decent operating system... Jumped ship long ago and couldn't be happier...
Side note: had a lecture today on the current state of IT business, and it was clearly noted that MS is losing market share (missed tablets/smart phones), and is losing mind share as well, since more and more people are realising they don't actually need MS software! (be it Enterprise with Linux eroding the server space, replacement of productivity space with Google Apps and to a lesser extent OpenOffice/LibreOffice/etc, and developers starting to tire of the endless platform cycle with MS development frameworks - a lot are moving to web be it PHP/Ruby/etc or even back to Java or traditional C++ with QT). Heck, most are complaining that the PC gaming marketing is dying due the crappy console ports PC gamers are saddled with...
PS. mini rant / piss take over. (most of the above is in jest or light hearted - I'll let you decide which parts are which).
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Windows is not going away for mainstream business software. I don't like their crap with development frameworks either (and, hey, I'm not a programmer because I don't want to be a programmer), but it does strike me that there's nothing stopping people from using older tech. For the most part none of the old tech stops working. There are still craploads of people developing software with VB6 and VB6 apps will probably run on Windows for another 10 years. Maybe it's easier to build software that's more fully buzzword compliant when you're using new thing X but once the interfaces exist, the older developer products can probably be made to talk to it.
Also, to Microsoft's credit, everything on the developer side seems to me to be exquisitely well documented. It changes all the damned time, but someone who is motivated can stay on top of it.
Also, to Microsoft's credit, everything on the developer side seems to me to be exquisitely well documented. It changes all the damned time, but someone who is motivated can stay on top of it.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
As a note to the all zero of the rest of you who have any sort of Windows 8 deployments, do BIOS updates on everything you have. Gigabyte, Asus and Intel motherboards, even new-ish ones released in the last six months all seem to have some kind of odd behavior, most often with power management, that is corrected with an update.
I found out that my machines were waking up from what I thought were shut-down states randomly and for no reason. Not a big deal, but it was weird to see it happen. I also had issues with wired network connections sometimes not being restored on wake up.
I finally had time to troubleshoot this crap and absolutely all of it was BIOS related weirdness.
I found out that my machines were waking up from what I thought were shut-down states randomly and for no reason. Not a big deal, but it was weird to see it happen. I also had issues with wired network connections sometimes not being restored on wake up.
I finally had time to troubleshoot this crap and absolutely all of it was BIOS related weirdness.
ddrueding
Fixture
Thanks for the tip. I currently have an external BD drive that disconnects any time the computer sleeps, requiring a reboot. I'll check that out.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
Good news!
The best-of-breed Windows 8 UI fix package, Classic Shell, has now been updated to include the one key feature that it was missing - disable start menu transparency. It is very difficult to disable the deliberate cripple of the start menu Microsoft introduced with Windows 8 yourself.
Yes, yes, MS took the menu away completely, but the underlying code is still there in part-crippled form - which is how Classic Shell and Start 8 and the two or three other similar packages work. You are supposed to be able to perform a complicated series of hacks and tricks to get the menu opacity back but they are arcane and very unreliable. Really, you need a package that does it for you. This was the one main reason to favour Start 8 over Classc Shell, but they are even on that score now.
I wish Stardock well with Start 8 (I've been a happy Stardock customer for one thing or another since long before Storage Forum even existed) but it is comprehensively outclassed by Classic Shell now. I couldn't care less about the price difference ($5 vs free), it's the vastly greater flexibility of Classic Shell which counts here. Start 8, in contrast, can only give you the equivalent of Windows 7 UI functionality, which is good enough only if you can't get anything better. Classic Shell (or for that matter the old Windows XP shell and its various relatives, if you tweak them right) is significantly more time-efficient which, for a UI, is what matters.
The best-of-breed Windows 8 UI fix package, Classic Shell, has now been updated to include the one key feature that it was missing - disable start menu transparency. It is very difficult to disable the deliberate cripple of the start menu Microsoft introduced with Windows 8 yourself.
Yes, yes, MS took the menu away completely, but the underlying code is still there in part-crippled form - which is how Classic Shell and Start 8 and the two or three other similar packages work. You are supposed to be able to perform a complicated series of hacks and tricks to get the menu opacity back but they are arcane and very unreliable. Really, you need a package that does it for you. This was the one main reason to favour Start 8 over Classc Shell, but they are even on that score now.
I wish Stardock well with Start 8 (I've been a happy Stardock customer for one thing or another since long before Storage Forum even existed) but it is comprehensively outclassed by Classic Shell now. I couldn't care less about the price difference ($5 vs free), it's the vastly greater flexibility of Classic Shell which counts here. Start 8, in contrast, can only give you the equivalent of Windows 7 UI functionality, which is good enough only if you can't get anything better. Classic Shell (or for that matter the old Windows XP shell and its various relatives, if you tweak them right) is significantly more time-efficient which, for a UI, is what matters.
ddrueding
Fixture
Tannin, how easy would it be to do a large deployment with Classic Shell? Do you have a config file done up the way you like it?
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
I've never thought about that, Dave. Hell, two machines counts as a "large deployment" in my book, and it's easier just to point and click for a few minutes. Saves thought. Anything that saves thought is a good thing. But assuming Classic Shell has some sort of config file you can copy to a suitable location (I don't have a copy in front of me, this is an XP machine), I can't see why it wouldn't be as easy as you like.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
PS: the way it comes straight out of the box isn't bad, though I do have a few tweaks I like to add.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
It deploys through ninite. That's pretty damned straightforward if you need it.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Has anyone found any Metro Apps they actually like?
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Someones I open one by accident. I hit alt-F4 as quickly as possible.
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
I wouldn't know; I never visit the Metro interface.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
They need a special Metro Key.
All computer manufacturers must be required to add it the same way they were required to add the new "windows" key back in Win 95 days. The Metro Key would make life much easier for non-technical people using Windows 8. It would be an oversize key prominently located above the numeric keypad, and coloured bright red. Any time you get stuck in a Metro app, just press the Metro Key, which should be functionally equivalent to Alt-f4, and you get teleported back to the desktop. With Windows 9, they can upgrade the functionality so that it is self-triggering - i.e., it auto-detects that a Metro app is running and shuts it down for you.
What's not to like?
All computer manufacturers must be required to add it the same way they were required to add the new "windows" key back in Win 95 days. The Metro Key would make life much easier for non-technical people using Windows 8. It would be an oversize key prominently located above the numeric keypad, and coloured bright red. Any time you get stuck in a Metro app, just press the Metro Key, which should be functionally equivalent to Alt-f4, and you get teleported back to the desktop. With Windows 9, they can upgrade the functionality so that it is self-triggering - i.e., it auto-detects that a Metro app is running and shuts it down for you.
What's not to like?
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Q: why do they call them "apps?"
A: 'Cause "useless POS" was already taken.
A: 'Cause "useless POS" was already taken.
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
<very funny>
or.
A. They're missing so many needed features, that calling them an application can't be justified? (eg castrated POS as you put it).
A. Apple has tried to trademark the word "App" so everyone has to pay them to use it? (Seriously, Apple did try to trademark it).
A. Calling them an "App" makes it sound cool?
A. Umm... I don't F&*ing know, I hate the term App, but the Marketing dept are forcing us?
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
A German company Metro AG has claims to the name Metro, so currently, it's called "Modern UI" or "Microsoft design language" when referencing to the language markup/environment.
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
As mentioned in other threads, my wife hated Win8, so I put Win7 Pro on her laptop.
But seeing my Dad use Win8 was enlightening... He's no technophobe, he started with computers using IBM Mainframes in the 70's and desktop PCs right through the 80's and early 90's. But in the mid-90's, due to change of work and not needing one at home, never bothered to update/keep up. Mum on the other hand basically just knows enough to be dangerous, and is happy with XP. (she basically only does web/email). But back to Dad, he admits he's a new computer user in the modern age, so ran through the experiment from a new computer user.
His take on Win8 and the Modern UI, he was happy with it and understood the basics with a 30min tutorial. He thought it was easier than WinXP, as everything was on the Start Screen and could access the Start Screen with the Windows key was very helpful. Overall, he thought the workflow presented by the ModernUI and ModernUI based apps was very easy, since they were basic and did the core of what they needed to do. All functions were available from a right click if you needed something more. His only complaint with ModernUI Apps was the lack of a close button, but showed him that to close an app was ALT-F4, or alternatively if left running as available by mousing to the top-left of the screen.
What I observed was the reduced functionality of most ModernUI apps actually helped new users to be productive in a shorter time period as they weren't over whelmed with cluttered screens. In a sense, I think the MS people did a very smart thing be bring the core applications people use back to basic functionality, and as they say 80% of people only use 20% of the functionality... (And this is the reason why people bitch about the ModernUI apps, is that they use a different 20% of the functionality).
So his take on Windows 8 - very positive for a new user to computing.
What I noticed was that if you stuck in the ModernUI eco-system it all worked extremely well, and the entire OS felt very integrated together even with 3rd party applications. But once you left the ModernUI and had to move between traditional desktop and the ModernUI, it broke down pretty quickly especially since it all lost the integrated feel.
What did I think of Windows 8 - well my judgement hasn't changed of it... It's just Windows with a tiled start menu instead of a start menu. More blah... (The one item I did like with the tiled interface, was that the Mail tile had the number of unread emails visible and a few of the other apps had their status immediately available/viewable from the Start Screen).
He also got a new MS Mouse with the touch area in the scroll wheel position, and that had gesture support and it also integrated well with the environment.
But seeing my Dad use Win8 was enlightening... He's no technophobe, he started with computers using IBM Mainframes in the 70's and desktop PCs right through the 80's and early 90's. But in the mid-90's, due to change of work and not needing one at home, never bothered to update/keep up. Mum on the other hand basically just knows enough to be dangerous, and is happy with XP. (she basically only does web/email). But back to Dad, he admits he's a new computer user in the modern age, so ran through the experiment from a new computer user.
His take on Win8 and the Modern UI, he was happy with it and understood the basics with a 30min tutorial. He thought it was easier than WinXP, as everything was on the Start Screen and could access the Start Screen with the Windows key was very helpful. Overall, he thought the workflow presented by the ModernUI and ModernUI based apps was very easy, since they were basic and did the core of what they needed to do. All functions were available from a right click if you needed something more. His only complaint with ModernUI Apps was the lack of a close button, but showed him that to close an app was ALT-F4, or alternatively if left running as available by mousing to the top-left of the screen.
What I observed was the reduced functionality of most ModernUI apps actually helped new users to be productive in a shorter time period as they weren't over whelmed with cluttered screens. In a sense, I think the MS people did a very smart thing be bring the core applications people use back to basic functionality, and as they say 80% of people only use 20% of the functionality... (And this is the reason why people bitch about the ModernUI apps, is that they use a different 20% of the functionality).
So his take on Windows 8 - very positive for a new user to computing.
What I noticed was that if you stuck in the ModernUI eco-system it all worked extremely well, and the entire OS felt very integrated together even with 3rd party applications. But once you left the ModernUI and had to move between traditional desktop and the ModernUI, it broke down pretty quickly especially since it all lost the integrated feel.
What did I think of Windows 8 - well my judgement hasn't changed of it... It's just Windows with a tiled start menu instead of a start menu. More blah... (The one item I did like with the tiled interface, was that the Mail tile had the number of unread emails visible and a few of the other apps had their status immediately available/viewable from the Start Screen).
He also got a new MS Mouse with the touch area in the scroll wheel position, and that had gesture support and it also integrated well with the environment.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
So what you are saying, Chewy, is that Win 8 Metro is a good, simple, practical interface for computer morons.
(No criticism of your dad there at all - any beginner to any area as large, diverse and complex as desktop computing is always going to be on that sort of level.)
Point is, there are lots of people for whom a really, really dumbed-down interface is completely appropriate. I don't have a problem with that. Hell, look at Chrome - world's most interface-crippled browser and people love it! - and look at Apple computer - there is a massively successful company which has made an entire multi-national institution and a truly evil mountain of tax-free money on the back of the simplicity straightjacket.
Microsoft's mistake is to think that
(a) the whole world is made up out of Apple buyers (plus your dad) and other people who like the Apple recipe
and that
(b) the rest of the world (the non-Apple buyers) will keep on buying Microsoft stuff simply because it says "Microsoft" on the box.
Apple at its religious peak only ever got 10-20% of the market - i.e., 80% said "no thanks"to Steve's dumb-is-beautiful rules the world plan. A very, very large slice of that 80% were never going to switch to Apple, and they are even less likely to wear the Metro dumbness.
Out there in real-world-land, there is more resistance to Windows 8 than there was to Vista. People say "Oh, you're not going to put that Windows 8 on it! That's why I came to you, cause I want it to work like a proper computer." Microsoft should pay me for every customer I show Win 8 with Classic Shell looking and working like a best-of collection of the Win XP and Vista/7 interfaces. Once I have tweaked it for them, they love it! But Metro - the ONLY, repeat ONLY thing they want to know about Metro is how to get rid of it.
If Microsoft stick to their guns and try to make their own Metro-style dumbness apps the mainstream of Windows 9 software, they are history. I'm serious, it will finish the company. At least finish it as a dominant player, finish it as we know it. People won't wear that. MS got to where it is by (at least some of the time) giving people what they want. They forget that lesson at their peril.
(No criticism of your dad there at all - any beginner to any area as large, diverse and complex as desktop computing is always going to be on that sort of level.)
Point is, there are lots of people for whom a really, really dumbed-down interface is completely appropriate. I don't have a problem with that. Hell, look at Chrome - world's most interface-crippled browser and people love it! - and look at Apple computer - there is a massively successful company which has made an entire multi-national institution and a truly evil mountain of tax-free money on the back of the simplicity straightjacket.
Microsoft's mistake is to think that
(a) the whole world is made up out of Apple buyers (plus your dad) and other people who like the Apple recipe
and that
(b) the rest of the world (the non-Apple buyers) will keep on buying Microsoft stuff simply because it says "Microsoft" on the box.
Apple at its religious peak only ever got 10-20% of the market - i.e., 80% said "no thanks"to Steve's dumb-is-beautiful rules the world plan. A very, very large slice of that 80% were never going to switch to Apple, and they are even less likely to wear the Metro dumbness.
Out there in real-world-land, there is more resistance to Windows 8 than there was to Vista. People say "Oh, you're not going to put that Windows 8 on it! That's why I came to you, cause I want it to work like a proper computer." Microsoft should pay me for every customer I show Win 8 with Classic Shell looking and working like a best-of collection of the Win XP and Vista/7 interfaces. Once I have tweaked it for them, they love it! But Metro - the ONLY, repeat ONLY thing they want to know about Metro is how to get rid of it.
If Microsoft stick to their guns and try to make their own Metro-style dumbness apps the mainstream of Windows 9 software, they are history. I'm serious, it will finish the company. At least finish it as a dominant player, finish it as we know it. People won't wear that. MS got to where it is by (at least some of the time) giving people what they want. They forget that lesson at their peril.
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
Tannin, no offense at all, my Dad is the classic "computer moron" win 8 is aimed at! And for him it worked well.
Mind you there are rumors of Win8.1 being more "Enterprise Friendly" in that it'll natively support boot to desktop, better GPO controls over Metro applications and the ModernUI experience, but alas no start menu...
Interesting note today, it was mentioned that Metro Applications (from MS and the MS Store) have zero integration with WSUS. WTF?
Mind you there are rumors of Win8.1 being more "Enterprise Friendly" in that it'll natively support boot to desktop, better GPO controls over Metro applications and the ModernUI experience, but alas no start menu...
Interesting note today, it was mentioned that Metro Applications (from MS and the MS Store) have zero integration with WSUS. WTF?
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
Tannin, one thing missing in your business analysis is how profitable Apple was selling to only 15% of the market. There may be money to be made from selling a consistent user experience no matter what the underlying base is...like you do.
I don't think there is anything wrong with Tannin's analysis. Nor your's Howell. The question is, can Microsoft sell to the same niche as Apple, and charge the same prices in a fragmented market (Apple, Android, Windows)? I don't think they can.
And why did I drag Android into this? Because the phone/tablet market is eating into the traditional ecosystem from the bottom up. If you've invested in Android via your phone/tablet, and it enriches your computing experience at the expense of your traditional laptop/desktop (that is people are using phone/tablet as their primary device), what is Windows 8 offering? I think Microsoft are too late to the party.
And why did I drag Android into this? Because the phone/tablet market is eating into the traditional ecosystem from the bottom up. If you've invested in Android via your phone/tablet, and it enriches your computing experience at the expense of your traditional laptop/desktop (that is people are using phone/tablet as their primary device), what is Windows 8 offering? I think Microsoft are too late to the party.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
I agree with LiamC.