More Vista nonsense

[Tannin]

One you can't walk away from and say it must have happened while you were in the supermarket.

 

[Mercutio]

Anyone here noticed this?

Something I've seen several times now is name brand PCs with Vista installed, where the partition ID does not match the actual format of data on the partition. The actual data is NTFS, but it'll be marked as something else.

To understand this problem, you kind of need to be familiar with Linux fdisk, or disk partitioning on something other than a Microsoft machine. If you're using one of those fancier fdisk programs, you have the option of allocating space and then setting a partition ID, which should represent the format for data that will be on that partition. By standard, NTFS partitions should be flagged as "07" and VFAT or FAT16 should be "06."

What I have seen, on some Dell Inspiron and Acer Aspire notebooks, are NTFS partitions that aren't marked as NTFS but instead as something else. I've seen FAT16, FAT12 and even "unknown partition type."

That's not unusual for the recovery partition. Recovery partitions are usually hidden and I'm OK with that. I'm talking about the main, boot/system partition that Windows is using.

No big deal, Windows works, right?

Well... it is kind of a big deal. It makes those misleading partitions unmountable (at least for R/W) in Linux and it makes DOS or Linux based password blanking programs nonfunctional. Basically that takes away a ton of recovery options.

I've run into this on three Acers and one Dell. All different models.

 

[Gilbo]

What's a hard crash?

Complete lock-up, no CTRL+ALT+DEL, no nothing. You have to hold the power button for 5 seconds to shut the computer down because nothing works. In XP I could usually just kill the offending app, and go about my business, but in Vista I often have to completely kill the power.

As for certified hardware, I don't think any of this should be a problem, but I haven't honestly checked:
*Intel Q6600
*8GB RAM
*Gigabyte P35 motherboard (can't remember the model off hand)
*NVidia Geforce 8800 GTS 640MB
*Some hard drives
*Epson V700 Scanner (64-bit drivers)
*Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit (so I shouldn't even be able to load uncertified drivers right?)
*Oh ya, a couple USB hubs and CF/SD readers.

Nothing there that should cause trouble, I think. I built the box specifically to run CS3, which contains the only apps I need to run on Windows, but, in he end, it's not very reliable. It's really quite annoying. I even checked the memory 4GB at a time (because Memtest86+ is 32-bit and can't address 8GB). Bleh...

I haven't tried a complete reinstall yet. I suppose I will eventually. But I think I'll probably just install Linux and run Vista and CS3 in a VM instead. I suppose CS3 will be bog slow in a VM, but at least Vista won't take everything with it when it pukes, just CS3 the only apps I have to run in Windows. I'll have to get a separate Windows box for the scanner, since the V700 isn't fully supported on Linux yet.

The big issue is that I really can't have Firefox crashing. I use TiddlyWiki for a lot of important notes and information so if Firefox or the computer crashes and I haven't saved my TiddlyWiki lately I use all the unsaved work. I've lost hours (days really --if you add up all the hours) of productivity. I really need a rock-solid Firefox on my main computer because of this. A lot of the time the problem seems to be caused by Vista's ridiculously slow file open/save dialogs. I think it freaks Firefox out when the OS hangs for a full minute when asked to open a save as dialog on the screen. I'm just praying that SP1 solves the stability problems.

 

[mubs]

Tannin, from the amount of tea you drink, you're obviously PUI ;-)

Gilbo, thanks. I bought Vista Home Premium 64-bit just to run PS CS3. I haven't installed Vista (or CS3) yet. Maybe I should sell it off for what I can get. No point installing such shit and suffering the ensuing agony.

 

[timwhit]

Gilbo, is there any reason you couldn't run XP 64-bit instead? Or are there drivers that are missing?

 

[blakerwry]

Well... it is kind of a big deal. It makes those misleading partitions unmountable (at least for R/W) in Linux and it makes DOS or Linux based password blanking programs nonfunctional. Basically that takes away a ton of recovery options.

Can't you just use a fancy partition editor (gparted comes to mind) to change the partition type to match the file system type?

As far as I'm aware the type is mostly informational... and points more to the OS used to create the partition than the file system... after all, Linux only gets one type for the plethora of file systems it is capable of using.

 

[Mercutio]

As far as I'm aware the type is mostly informational... and points more to the OS used to create the partition than the file system... after all, Linux only gets one type for the plethora of file systems it is capable of using.

You can, and that's what I've been doing, but 1. Why are they deviating from standard? and 2. It breaks some really common techie tools; if you don't know any better you just say "Oh, my tool doesn't work with Vista."

 

[blakerwry]

I imagine the software they're using to clone the machines needs updated. Someone probably updated the data without updating the partitioning section of the software (in cases where FAT partition type is used w/ an NTFS FS).

 

[Mercutio]

I could believe that back in the days of Windows 98, but I'm seeing partitions marked as FAT12 (the filesystem used on floppy disks) and an "unknown" type that was up in the 60s someplace.

I think it's a purposeful attempt to reduce interoperability.

 

[Mercutio]

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35641/118/

 

[Fushigi]

Real goodly writing be in that piece. Internet "journalism" at its finest.

 

[Bozo]

Real goodly writing be in that piece. Internet "journalism" at its finest.

Maybe it was translated from Chinese? :-D

Bozo :joker:

 

[Gilbo]

Gilbo, is there any reason you couldn't run XP 64-bit instead? Or are there drivers that are missing?

I was concerned about drivers. I think, right now, that I'm not missing any that could work in XP 64-bit, but I was worried that over the lifetime of the computer 64-bit XP would no longer be supported by the manufacturers. A lot of companies are skipping 64-bit XP from what I understand.

For the records CS3 itself is very stable --off-hand I can't recall it crashing. I got long delays when trying to save things sometimes, but nothing crashes.

My problems come up more with multitasking, something slows down or crashes and then takes everything else out. The system just doesn't behave well under load (IO more than CPU I'd say, but I haven't really made an effort to distinguish --I'm usually groaning and swearing about the work I just lost). Under XP I could just kill the offender; Vista just seems to collapse completely.

So, if you want to use CS3 I'd just keep most everything else closed. Single-tasking doesn't seem to produce the same problems in my experience. Also, I'm sure they'll fix it eventually... they better ...

 

[Bozo]

At this point, why don't you install Vista SP1. It is available for download I believe. And, it is a 'Release Candidate' version.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Gilbo]

I could I suppose. It's my main desktop at home though, so I'm wary of "Release Candidates". Microsoft hasn't exactly impressed my lately...

 

[Bozo]

Microsoft is getting desparate:

http://apcmag.com/8017/microsoft_battles_vista_perception_issues_15_000_prize

Bozo :joker:

 

[Tannin]

I really need a rock-solid Firefox

No problem. Rock-solid as you like.

 

[Tannin]

That's a very sad joke, Bozo. More than meets the casual eye, because like thousands of other dealers, I would be happy to sell more MS product than I do now, but they do not listen to their custoers and keep trying to shove junk we on't want down our throats while removing from sale producs that we do want and can sell in serious volume. XP Pro Upgrade edition is a perfect example. Like every other dealer on the planet, I could sell that by the truckload, but they refuse to supply it.

Bastard morons.

 

[Tannin]

That's a very sad joke, Bozo. More than meets the casual eye, because like thousands of other dealers, I would be happy to sell more MS product than I do now, but they do not listen to their custoers and keep trying to shove junk we on't want down our throats while removing from sale producs that we do want and can sell in serious volume. XP Pro Upgrade edition is a perfect example. Like every other dealer on the planet, I could sell that by the truckload, but they refuse to supply it.

Bastard morons.

 

[e_dawg]

Strangely, Vista is the only thing really stable on my machine that also works with all my applications (PS CS3 included -- managed to get it a working version for those whom remembered my original dilemma). I remain pleasantly surprised...

 

[mubs]

So are there any tricks to getting PS CS3 to work with Vista 64-bit Home Premium?

 

[e_dawg]

Ah, I see. It's a trick question! You can't use Vista HP 64-bit with anything and expect it to work, right!

 

[sechs]

So are there any tricks to getting PS CS3 to work with Vista 64-bit Home Premium?

Upgrade to XP.

 

[mubs]

e_d, I asked the question in all seriousness. Why would VHP not work with anything? Are you not using a 64-bit version of Vista?

Listen, Sechs, wiseguy :drunk:, I already have XP on my everyday m/c. I bought VHP 64-bit explicitly to use more RAM with PS CS3, with the intention of dual-booting. So should I gyp some poor soul by selling him/her my unopened, unused copy of VHP-64, and sell off the two sticks of RAM I bought from Clocker which also has not been taken out of its package?

 

[RWIndiana]

Google is paying Codeweavers to make Photoshop work in Linux. Now that is interesting (to me).

 

[mubs]

YES!

 

[Tannin]

A non-Windows system starts to become a real possibility if this comes to fruition. As Mubbs says ... YES!

 

[MaxBurn]

I keep hearing they are sneaking up the release date of whatever comes next, looks like they are calling it windows 7 so far. I can wait till second half 09.

 

[Fushigi]

I could I suppose. It's my main desktop at home though, so I'm wary of "Release Candidates". Microsoft hasn't exactly impressed my lately...

Vista SP1 is officially out. I installed it on my main PC last night. No noticeable difference so far, but re-testing the Windows Experience Index showed a bump from 5.6 to 5.8. Disk was the previous bottleneck so it would seem they re-worked the disk access system a bit.

I've 2 other Vista PCs; I'll see about getting SP1 on them over the next week or so.

 

[Tea]

Errr .... Vista SP 1 is officially NOT out - it's been delayed. (Again.) Apparently, it breaks a number of applications, including Trend Micro 2007, Zonealarm, and some stuff from Novell.

Well, it does't "break" them, according to Microsoft customers will experience some 'loss of functionality" - i.e., the programs don't work at all. (I don't get this human speak. I'd have thought that was = "break" but apparently not.)

Given, however, that the programs it breaks are (among others) Trend Bloato, Zonesluggo, and Novellwhocaresanywayo, I personally would regard this as a feature, not a bug.

Now, if they would just tweak XP SP3 up a little so that it automatically uninstalls, deletes, trashes, and spits out the bits of Trend, Mcafee, Realplayer, and absolutely anything with the words "symantec" or "norton" in it, I'd be prepared to swar off bananas for a whole week.

 

[Fushigi]

Windows Update told me it was available last night. After installation my Properties now says "Windows Vista Ultimate .. Service Pack 1"

And no, it was not delayed. According to MS the RTM was Feb 4 and it was made available to MSDN subscribers on Feb 14. Still, there does seem to be some inconsistency. They are still showing a planned March release to the general public. Perhaps they are staging the release to reduce the surge in downloads.

 

[Bozo]

What was pulled was a 'pre-SP1' setup utility. I believe it was a registry modification to allow automatic download and install.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Tea]

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/22/vista-sp1-kills-third-party

 

[Fushigi]

So there are some issues with old software. For almost all of the items listed newer versions that don't have the problem are available. Looks like a non-issue unless you're still running Novell.

Do you have a source that says the SP was pulled? Other than The Enquirer's un-sourced assertion I don't see anything saying the SP has been withdrawn. InfoWorld, PCWorld, and c|net all have nothing about SP1 being pulled. And c|net explains how it showed up on my digital doorstep.

 

[Bozo]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,142651/article

Bozo :joker:

 

[Fushigi]

So an update that enables other updates, including SP1, has been pulled. But SP1 has not.

 

[Tea]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/22/vista_sp1_security_products/

 

[Tea]

Not that i give a rat's arumerbottom either way. They can put out Vista SP 17 on Tuesday and it will will still be a pile of steaming fonkey turerumstuff. Interest level zero. Why woiuld I ever want to run it?

 

[ddrueding]

Why woiuld I ever want to run it?

Because the day will come that some piece of "must have" software won't run on XP. QuickBooks, Photoshop, Some custom app that requires .Net version 55. Just hope that they have released some OS that doesn't suck before then.

 

[Tannin]

Dave, I just put my head together with Tannin, and we have made this list of software we use, in order of most used/most important to seldom used/not very important. Armed with the list, we can then go through it and see if there are any "high risk" apps that might make life difficult.

• PMView (Windows 95 or higher, OS/2, future Linux native version a reasonable possibility)
• Opera (just about anything)
• Other web browsers (just about anything)
• Edit Plus (Win95 and up, any version, could use a different programmer's text editor if I had to, but I like Edit Plus the best)
• Quattro Pro (Windows 3.1 or higher, fine in OS/2 or any Windows version so long as it's 16 or 32-bit. Won't run in 64-bit Windows)
• Thunderbird (just about anything, and could always use a different email app)
• Quicken 7 for DOS (Anything except 64-bit Windows)
• Word 7 for DOS (Anything except 64-bit Windows)
• Xtree for DOS (Anything except 64-bit Windows)
• Ztree (OS/2 and Windows versions, Win95 and up)
• Photoshop CS3 (Win XP, Vista or Mac. Running it under WINE is a possibility (see above)
• Neat Image (Windows, any version, I think)
• Downloader Pro (Windows, from memory any version with .NET 1.0 or higher. Not too hard to replace in any case)
• AIS Watermark Pictures Protector (Any Win32 version, easy enough to replace with something else if need be)
• Various assorted small utilities, ranging from disc management tools to FTP programs. All easy to replace on just about any OS)
• Can't think of anything else that matters.

Of these, some I mainly use on my Thinkpad, some are mainly for office tasks, and a few cross over. Office machine needs:

• PMView (or a substitute)
• A web browser, doesn't matter which one so long as it's not IE
• Quattro Pro (essential!)
• Quicken 7 for DOS
• Word 7 for DOS
• Xtree and Ztree
• Various assorted small utilities

The current OS on that machine, Ecomstation 1.0 (essentially OS/2 Warp 4 with updates) is ideal. I will probably upgrade it to 2.0 when that comes out (in beta now). I bought but uninstalled 1.1 (some errors I was too lazy to track down, just went back to the older version and added all the fixpacks instead), and skipped 1.2 (didn't have much new stuff that I needed, mostly hardware drivers for stuff like USB scanners, which I don't need).

On the Thinkpad, I need/use:

• PMView. Substitutes are not acceptable.
• Opera and various other web browsers
• Edit Plus (prefer not to switch)
• Quattro Pro (but I could get by with some other spreadsheet, a minor inconvenience)
• Thunderbird
• Photoshop CS3
• Neat Image
• Downloader Pro
• AIS Watermark Pictures Protector
• Various assorted small utilities

On that list, Photoshop is clearly the stand-out high-risk application. It is quite likely that CS4 will be a Vista-only poduct (knowing the poxheads at Adobe), or else Mac (not something we would consider - here at Red Hill, we like computers, not glorified furniture).

Neat Image would probably run under WINE (a guess), there are other downloaders and watermarking programs, the rest is either pretty good cross-platform or easily replacable.

That seems to leave just three things stopping me from swapping to 'nix:

1: Photoshop (WINE?)
2: PMView (WINE or a Linux native version?)
3: Hardware stuff, in particular, drivers for my wireless USB internet (which I only use when thravelling, but I travell a lot.)

In turn, this seems to leave two pretty fair possibilities:

(a) Microsoft manage to produce a Windows version that doesn't suck

(b) It becomes fully practical to run PMView and Photoshop on Linux.

I only need either one of these two possibilities to eventuate, with a time frame of maybe 3-5 years before (the most likely trigger) Photoshop CS5 tempts me enough to want to upgrade.

Oh, and maybe someone will produce an image editor that doesnt suck. But don't hold your breath, I think we will be stuck with the elephantine Photoshop for many a year yet.