Ryzen

Santilli

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HMMM. Now I'm not sure the onboard graphic was worth the extra 90.00.
 

LunarMist

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Correct. The old rig did everything I needed to do, until it was getting near 100% cpu use, while watching video, or Hulu. I also found RAM really helped, and I was stuck at 16 GB, unable to fill the other 2 slots to get it to 24.
I've yet to find any programs that are adversely affected by turning off VM, and it seems to smooth out the system, at least in my own beer induced delusions.
I had a Gulftown, the 2010 6-cored version of your PCU, with 24GB. But I only used it until the later part of 2014.
 

Santilli

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Mercutio mentioned the 1080 as still viable. Looks like he's right. Odd the 1080 has retained such a high price tag.
 

LunarMist

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I have no idea what you are comparing and why the full screenshots. The 5700G has a video benchmark at passmark if you care. It's a cheap CPU/APU nowadays as fits the market for that performance level.
 

Santilli

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I had a Gulftown, the 2010 6-cored version of your PCU, with 24GB. But I only used it until the later part of 2014.
I went through some dark times. Could barely walk. Lost 7 year job, refing Lacrosse. Evicted. Living in my car and driving Lyft in San Francisco. etc.
For about 4 years, the only computer I could really use was the Panasonic CF-53.
Actually longer then that. Forgot about living in a hotel for two years, starting with COVID.
I've had both hips replaced, and my left knee. Just now getting Physical Therapy to try and get everything loose again.
Forgot the heart surgery. Had a stint put in, in between hip and knee replacement.
 

Santilli

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Thanks!
Searches came back the Radeon Vega 8 was the chip on the 5700G.
Apparently that search was wrong, or something, not sure what, doubled the performance on the 5700G.
The others are cards suggested, or one's I've owned.
I also try not to upgrade unless it's a BIG jump.
With Intel, it always seemed like they would change sockets, so you would have to upgrade both CPU and motherboard.
Video cards are a bit stranger.
The 1070 is about 7000 points below the fastest 4090, which is what, 2g's?
It justified the upgrade from the 1060. If I had a 1080, I'm not sure. 50% increase, for 500.00???
 

ddrueding

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This amazes me! How did it work? And why did you do that?
Modern Intel CPUs are designed to just keep turning up the clockspeed and voltage until either the power consumed by the CPU hits the programmed limit (this can be bypassed) or the temperature of the CPU hits a certain limit. Since any cooler effectively has a maximum number of watts it can extract from the CPU, the goal is to remove any watts you aren't focusing on so all the watts can go to what you want.

Since the most demanding thing I do is game, and most games use 100% of one core, and some smaller percentage of 3-4 other cores, disabling all but the fastest 6 cores on the CPU maximizes gaming performance (at the expense of just about everything else). I used CPU-Z and some benchmarking tools to identify the cores that ran the fastest and stayed the coolest, and disabled the rest.
 

Mercutio

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Are you saying that if 12 cores are used in a 12-core CPU that is better than using 12 cores from a 16-core CPU?

There's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that when the power budget is equal, the 12c AMDs can ramp up a bit higher on all cores than the 16c versions, which was my reason for buying a 5900X instead of a 5950X for my second desktop.


Looks like the 78003XD would be a great choice, value wise.

You bought into a nearly end of life Zen 4 CPU though they are all a pretty good value now. I can understand since you are so into gaming and it will be later in the year when the Zen 5 X3D arrives.

Purportedly, they're launching Zen 5 X3D much earlier this time, like maybe end of September. X3D has been around for a while and it might be closer to a plug and play technology for AMD's architecture.

But X3D's value is tied to how much the extra cache is used and primarily benefits gaming workloads over everything else. That makes sense for someone who wants a gaming system but given that there's a price premium AND it doesn't help anything else, the non-X3D models make more sense to me. I'd rather have an extra 4c/8t for that $100 than faster cache that might make Cyberpunk 2077 get an extra 10% FPS.

I suspect that AMD is in a similar boat as Intel, basically clocking until thermal throttling. In order to maximize single core performance for me, I had to disable all the E-Cores and some of the P-Cores in the BIOS. I even bought the CPU that didn't have the iGPU on it to free up some watts for compute.

The common wisdom for dealing with Intel right now is at the bare minimum, disabling any kind of frequency increase on the E-cores, if not disabling them entirely. You definitely don't want to bother letting them get hot at all.
 

Mercutio

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Sorry to hear about your health of late, Greg.

The 7600X and the 5900X are very close in performance terms, and actually so are the 1080Ti and the A770. I haven't had a chance to finalize the setup on the new PC well enough to run any normalized tests, but it looks like games are mostly around 5% faster in terms of fps with the 7600X/1080Ti and content creation software somewhat more strongly favoring the 5900x and A770. I can't believe both the CPU and GPU are such lateral moves, especially with the 1080Ti being the ancient thing that it is, but in the battle of ~$800 mid-range desktops, here we are.
 

Santilli

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Modern Intel CPUs are designed to just keep turning up the clockspeed and voltage until either the power consumed by the CPU hits the programmed limit (this can be bypassed) or the temperature of the CPU hits a certain limit. Since any cooler effectively has a maximum number of watts it can extract from the CPU, the goal is to remove any watts you aren't focusing on so all the watts can go to what you want.

Since the most demanding thing I do is game, and most games use 100% of one core, and some smaller percentage of 3-4 other cores, disabling all but the fastest 6 cores on the CPU maximizes gaming performance (at the expense of just about everything else). I used CPU-Z and some benchmarking tools to identify the cores that ran the fastest and stayed the coolest, and disabled the rest.
BRILLIANT!!!
 

Santilli

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Sorry to hear about your health of late, Greg.

The 7600X and the 5900X are very close in performance terms, and actually so are the 1080Ti and the A770. I haven't had a chance to finalize the setup on the new PC well enough to run any normalized tests, but it looks like games are mostly around 5% faster in terms of fps with the 7600X/1080Ti and content creation software somewhat more strongly favoring the 5900x and A770. I can't believe both the CPU and GPU are such lateral moves, especially with the 1080Ti being the ancient thing that it is, but in the battle of ~$800 mid-range desktops, here we are.
Thank you, Mercutio.
1080i, and my 1060, were both a bit ahead of their time. It's amazing they haven't been really drilled by the latest offerings, and they maintain value.
DD had suggested the 7800X3D first. It's really a maze with the socket 4 chip variety, and the 5 is likewise, many chips going sideways.
What got me was the 7950X3D. Only 4.6 mhz, for the 7950, and 4.4mhz for the7900X3D.
If DD is right, and he usually is, what you look for is high single thread numbers.
The above are all within 3% on single thread tests.
Boy, you pay through the nose for the 7950X3D, and get very little value increased.
 

Mercutio

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Thank you, Mercutio.

Boy, you pay through the nose for the 7950X3D, and get very little value increased.

That's true if you're gaming, but I'm using a 3rd generation Threadripper as my daily driver system. I spend kind of a lot of time working in a video editor and with VMs, so having scads of PCIe lanes and four dozen threads has been a better overall deal for me than whatever desktop platforms are doing. I can't remotely afford a new Threadripper and that system is ~five years old now, but a high end Zen 5 will at least be an overall improvement in every way other than the number of NVMe drives I can stick in it.

My domestic partner is a lot more involved in gamer stuff than I am, but she has her own wastes of electricitycollection of computers. Ironically, she still uses my spare desktop in favor to the desktop her job gave her; she's convinced the guy she works for uses it to spy on what she does through it.
 

LunarMist

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I went through some dark times. Could barely walk. Lost 7 year job, refing Lacrosse. Evicted. Living in my car and driving Lyft in San Francisco. etc.
For about 4 years, the only computer I could really use was the Panasonic CF-53.
Actually longer then that. Forgot about living in a hotel for two years, starting with COVID.
I've had both hips replaced, and my left knee. Just now getting Physical Therapy to try and get everything loose again.
Forgot the heart surgery. Had a stint put in, in between hip and knee replacement.
OMG, that is horrible! :cry: Were you in an auto accident?
I had some medical issues in the past, but surgeries were not like that. Ironically the Dr. is dead and I'm still alive.
I thought you were a lawyer or something like that.
 

LunarMist

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That's true if you're gaming, but I'm using a 3rd generation Threadripper as my daily driver system. I spend kind of a lot of time working in a video editor and with VMs, so having scads of PCIe lanes and four dozen threads has been a better overall deal for me than whatever desktop platforms are doing. I can't remotely afford a new Threadripper and that system is ~five years old now, but a high end Zen 5 will at least be an overall improvement in every way other than the number of NVMe drives I can stick in it.

My domestic partner is a lot more involved in gamer stuff than I am, but she has her own wastes of electricitycollection of computers. Ironically, she still uses my spare desktop in favor to the desktop her job gave her; she's convinced the guy she works for uses it to spy on what she does through it.
It's a big ripoff that there are not more PCiE lanes on the non-server systems and the stupidly X870E Thunderbowl steals even more.
The threadwarper 7970X is only $2400 or do you need more than 32 cores? At least you get quadro-DDR5 RAM and a crapload of PCIe 5 lanes. I'm pretty sure water cooling would be needed for 350W. A TRX50 moanboard is about $1000 and you will need some RAM, but maybe it would be under $5K altogether? I'm sure you can recycle some parts and sell some of the archaic stuff. :)

She should refer to company policy for details, but any computer that is for business use is subject to monitoring and discovery. OTOH, it's often against policy to have any company data on personal devices.
 

jtr1962

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I went through some dark times. Could barely walk. Lost 7 year job, refing Lacrosse. Evicted. Living in my car and driving Lyft in San Francisco. etc.
For about 4 years, the only computer I could really use was the Panasonic CF-53.
Actually longer then that. Forgot about living in a hotel for two years, starting with COVID.
I've had both hips replaced, and my left knee. Just now getting Physical Therapy to try and get everything loose again.
Forgot the heart surgery. Had a stint put in, in between hip and knee replacement.
I give you credit for getting through all that. I doubt I could have. Living in your car sounds horrible, although the housing situation has become so bad it's often the only option. Some places even legalized this recently. They weren't thrilled about it, but saw the reality of the situation with large numbers of people not really having an alternative.

My mom went through having both hips and a knee replaced, along with a shoulder. The key to success is keeping up with your physical therapy.
 

Mercutio

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The threadwarper 7970X is only $2400 or do you need more than 32 cores?

"Only."
I don't make so much money that I can comfortably spend $5k on a PC for what amounts to hobby use and feel like I'm being anything like responsible. I definitely had more contracting income when I was younger, but the trade off is that I'm not as busy with work stuff and I take weekend trips pretty regularly.

She should refer to company policy for details, but any computer that is for business use is subject to monitoring and discovery. OTOH, it's often against policy to have any company data on personal devices.

Given that she works for a company that's closely involved in work with nightclubs, alcohol distribution and particular unions in Chicago (she mostly makes art that gets used for social media and print promotions), "monitoring and discovery" are less of a concern than some of the other felonies that might be involved in SOP. As far as I know, the company she works for is entirely on the up and up, but I have also met the single guy who has de facto control over liquor distribution at outdoor events in Chicago and I'm pretty sure he's some gangster's brother in law. Helluva nice guy though.

So she has this PC sitting around with specs that are pretty close to Santilli's new desktop, but the main thing she does is use the Adobe Creative Suite license her job pays for on other computers. The guy she works for just seems to have a less than healthy interest in what else she might be doing. Outside of the entertainment industry, this would unquestionably be a hostile work environment, but in the combination of small business, entertainment industry and mildly crime-adjacent, that's just how it be. The computer itself is VLAN'd off on its own, if only because she doesn't have admin access to it and I don't feel like messing with it.
 

Mercutio

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I got distracted replying to LM but a Slovenian retailer seems to slipped launched prices for Zen 5: €650 for the 9950X, €500 for the 9900X and down to €310 for the 9600X. I'm guessing the prices in USD will probably be pretty similar.
 

LunarMist

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Won't the shipping cost negate any advantages of buying from there?
The price of the 9950X is only slightly higher than the 9900X so it's an easy choice to get the better CPU.
I wonder if there will be a MicroCenter deal with a cheap mainboard.
 
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Santilli

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I give you credit for getting through all that. I doubt I could have. Living in your car sounds horrible, although the housing situation has become so bad it's often the only option. Some places even legalized this recently. They weren't thrilled about it, but saw the reality of the situation with large numbers of people not really having an alternative.

My mom went through having both hips and a knee replaced, along with a shoulder. The key to success is keeping up with your physical therapy.
Thanks for the understanding.
I was forced out of my house. I came down the stairs, thinking someone was hurting my fiannce, due to her screaming.
My hips gave out, I feel down the stairs, and the gun went off.
Cops came. The former owner of the property was a National Guard Col, Gunsmith, 25 year Walnut Creek cop.
He had a safe with 50 guns in it, but, after his death it went to a young kid that didn't know anything about guns.
I had 19 guns registered to me. Most where from the 70's, and I'd sold off 11 of them. Had not filled out the paper work for the sales.
Back then, it wasn't a crime.
Cops faked evidence, medical aided them, with lab results, and then disappearing.
Cops thought they would get Dicks 50 guns, plus my 19, when they came in.
They target gun owners. If anything goes wrong, they take your guns, sell them at a private auction, back to themselves, at free prices.
Guns where the only investment that I made, other then MSFT, that made money.
The Contra Costa courts have a 98% conviction rate.
MY Public Defender sold me out.
Convicted, 5 months in jail, lost my house and 8 years probation.
Probation over turned with new law.
I had planned on using the guns as a retirement investment. Useable, easy to move, and good increase in value.
I finished law school in 2001, and after my internships, decided I was never going to enter the most corrupt group of assholes I
ever met.
I worked my last year in the DA's office in San Francisco, when Gavin Newsome was there. We all knew he was an ass, and his work proved it.
That's my law experience.
During the time leading to the trial, I drove Lyft, and Uber in SF.
Slept in my car.
Enough of that.
Came to San Diego due to getting out of Contra Costa county.
Had the operations down here.
Today went to the zoo, and despite pain killers, couldn't walk much at all.
Physical Therapy was working, but insurance has screwed it up, with long times off, my PT people not taking Blue Shield all of a sudden.
I could go into the complexities of insurance down here, but thats for another post.
 

Mercutio

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Won't the shipping cost negate any advantages of buying from there?
The price of the 9950X is only slightly higher than the 9900X so it's an easy choice to get the better CPU.
I wonder if there will be a MicroCenter deal with a cheap mainboard.

I'm more interested in knowing expected MSRP. The launch prices on Zen 5 are generally lower than Zen 5. I'm pretty happy about that.
 

LunarMist

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The most exciting thing I read recently was that the 9950X will draw a max of 190W compared to the 230W of the 7950X. If correct, that will mean that the 9950X is much less likely to throttle back with air cooling and perform better for those of us on the NHD-15. For example, my 7950X throttles at ~220W and 95°C with the BLACK NHD-15.
 

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There have also been some details shared yesterday about the 9000 X3D series of CPUs. No mention of official TDP for these but hopefully it'll be similar. I know these won't apply to you, Lunar as much as me but it's nice to see some more details.
 

LunarMist

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That rather sucks since I was hoping for a symmetrical extra cache, not just for the 8 cores. I guess that APPLE hogging all the good manufacturing and AMD focusing on the Zen part 6 is part of it also.
That makes it easier to simply get the 9950x up front. By the time they have the X3D it will be closer to the next iNtel anyway.
 

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I assumed they were timing this with Intel's release and also so that the X870E and X870 chips were available near the end of September to align with this CPU. I haven't read anything about the Intel Arrow Lake in regards to performance, etc, only that the article claims an October release.
 

LunarMist

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It's not clear to me if the damned Thunderbowls can be disabled from the X870E. If not I am not buying into fewer PXCIe lanes. If I wanted local SSDs to be external, I'd buy a Mac. :D

I'm assuming that iNtel always has better performance, especially at the thread level, but at the expense of excessive power.
 

Mercutio

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Interesting but not meaningful news: 9900X sample came out ahead of the i9 14900KS on Geekbench 6 by about 6% in single threaded tests. It's about 10% slower in multicore, but that's an 8p/16e core CPU vs 12 cores of AMD. Geekbench is a synthetic benchmark, so I don't know how much I really care, but that's still good news since it's not the top end SKU either.
 

LunarMist

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So the single thread 9900X is about 16% more than the 7900X, but the multicore is only 11% more? That is a pretty lame upgrade for a 2-year cycle. I doubt that there will be any difference at the single core level with the 9950X compared to 9900X, but maybe multi-core speed will scale better with power.
Do you think the 9950X will be freely available right after July 31?
 

Mercutio

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I'm planning on buying sometime in August. I hope to see some testing from the nice people at Puget Systems before I get anything.
 

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So the single thread 9900X is about 16% more than the 7900X, but the multicore is only 11% more? That is a pretty lame upgrade for a 2-year cycle. I doubt that there will be any difference at the single core level with the 9950X compared to 9900X, but maybe multi-core speed will scale better with power.
Do you think the 9950X will be freely available right after July 31?

IMO the 9000 line isn't for people already on AM5 with high end 7000 series CPUs, it's for people like me holding out on AM4 still. I bet compared to my 5700X, the 9900X is leaps and bounds quicker.

Shame for them I just don't care.
 

LunarMist

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There is a small chance that I would replace the old 5700G system with a 9900X in 2025, but that has nothing to do with the main problem.

There was a 20% increase from the 3950X to the 5950X on the same boards about one year later.
Maybe there will be some miracle, but I'm not expecting that much improvement yet the 9000 series has taken two years after the 7000 series.
Perhaps AMD knew they had a dud in 2023 and kept trying to improve it to little avail, finally releasing the Zen 5 AM5 stuff in 2024.
If iNtel has a reasonable power efficiency in their 15th generator it might be time for many to get off the AMD train as it slows down. We'll see.
 

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It seems that, currently, whatever problems AMD has, Intel has it worse. I hope they get their shit together, especially with their dedicated graphics offerings but also just in general, because if they fail to compete for too much longer I wonder if it won't prompt them to leave the PC space entirely. I've been hearing rumors that Arc's been considered such a joke from the bad drivers that they might not even release Battlemage before they shutter the dGPU team. Not to derail the thread.

I really want Intel to get their head back in the game because I don't want to be dealing with the AMD AsMedia USB controller garbage ten years down the line.

That said, it's hard to argue that overall, AMD is the better option and likely will be for the forseeable future.
 

LunarMist

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That said, it's hard to argue that overall, AMD is the better option and likely will be for the forseeable future.
So you agree that iNtel is the better option.
GreekBench is not a very good indicator if the multicore results are only ~6-7x of the single core when there are 12-16 cores.
Merc is right that we need more application benchmarks. I'm hoping this is not like Sky Lake to Kaby Lake.
 

ddrueding

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I believe that, for many workloads, if money and energy consumption are not a factor, Intel has a lead. Once energy or money are factors, it is hard to say Intel is the right choice.
 

Mercutio

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Intel's version of forward progress for about the last six years has been to boost the TDP enough to get 100MHz higher boost clocks, such that i7 and i9 desktop CPUs are more in line with Threadripper than desktop Ryzen right now. These aren't workstation products. Even seen with the "bragging rights" of fastest single core performance for a desktop CPU, they're massive losers on performance/watt. It doesn't deserve a place at the table until Intel gets real about that.
 

LunarMist

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I've avoided INtel lately since their CPUs require Win 11, but it's mostly a question about the heatsink as I'm not into the water powered cooling. Is the upcoming Arrowhead Lake expected to have lower, same, or better power efficiency than the 14th?
I don't really care about petaflipflops per megawatt or whatever they care about in a data center. :)
 
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Mercutio

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Arrow Lake will be coming out of TSMC fabs and it'll be on a smaller process node than Zen 5 but absolutely no one is talking about its expected TDP. Die shrinks usually improve power efficiency, but Intel's last few (desktop) updates have eschewed that in the name of better (desktop) performance; Intel CPUs didn't get massively cooler from the last big die shrink they got.
 
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