Something Random

[jtr1962]

It depends. If it was in a wallet with someone's name, no. I'd call them and have them pick it up. If it was just bills floating around, probably, but I'd keep an eye out for any news of someone losing a large amount of cash. If I heard anything, again, I'd return it. Last thing I'd want to do is keep money that maybe some poor old lady needed to buy food.

If I found a suitcase of money while I'm out one night walking or riding my bike, it's mine. No legit person walks around with suitcases full of money. It was probably meant for a drug dealer, so I'd be doing society a service by keeping it. The drug dealer will be poorer, and he/she would probably off whoever was supposed to make the payment. BTW, back in the 1990s, when crime was at its high, some of my neighbors were actually robbing drug dealers. Keep their money, throw their "product" down the sewer. Win-win. When the dealers came up short with no money or product, their boss likely offed them. And hopefully fewer people got addicted. It's not like these people were going to go to the police to report they were robbed. No, I never participated in any of that. I just heard about it.

As for Merc, he could play wait and see. If they contact him about their mistake, then send the monitors back. This also may have been a simple product substitution by a clueless employee who didn't realize monitors of a given size aren't equivalent. Legally when you get unsolicited merchandise in the mail you're allowed to keep it. I just wouldn't push the issue here by claiming I didn't get any monitors at all, which by the sound of it looks like something Merc could possibly get away with.

I've already gotten substitutions for stuff that wasn't in stock, but I never lucked out like this. At best it was stuff of slightly higher value.

 

[Mercutio]

I am genuinely conflicted. If it were a wallet or purse or valuable item that clearly belongs to an individual, no question that I'd turn it in (I have in fact gone out of my way to return working phones I've found) but in this case: 1. These items weren't delivered properly to me in the first place 2. in what most people assume is a very high crime area 3. the driver didn't do the photographic proof of delivery 4. my invoice says I got the vastly cheaper items 5. from a company that's pretty well known as being a cesspool for evil and poor treatment of employees. 6. I can't make up for any harm that comes to the employees involved in the mistaken shipment or the delivery. The driver had no idea that they delivered the wrong item and clearly can't tell my apartment building from the one on the other side of a large parking lot. The warehouse worker though? Did somebody make an honest substitution, a mistake while they were filling my order or did a dissatisfied peon willfully hand me two grand worth of product as an FU to their employer? If it's the substitution or somebody's workplace rebellion, I'm actively refusing the gift that I've been given. And I think I'm in the clear in a legal sense: The boxes have my name on them.

Yes, I know that these monitors should go back, but on the other hand this makes almost zero difference in the net operations of a multibillion dollar company and it's the vanishingly rare chance to get one over on a company that inconveniences me and more or less everyone I know probably at least once or twice a month.

Maybe this is a better question for the moral philosophers of reddit or something?

 

[jtr1962]

Yes, I know that these monitors should go back, but on the other hand this makes almost zero difference in the net operations of a multibillion dollar company and it's the vanishingly rare chance to get one over on a company that inconveniences me and more or less everyone I know probably at least once or twice a month.

Maybe this is a better question for the moral philosophers of reddit or something?

I'd think of it as compensation for all the years of inconvenience they put you through. Also, this is like when someone puts up hacks to get around M$'s extortion schemes. Can't feel sorry for a multibillion dollar company who has screwed over their paying customers for decades, along with buying legislators to make laws which benefit them. As soon as MS no longer supports an operating system or other product, that product should be free to download and use. They're not the only ones. I recently heard about Nintendo trying to have sites which make the ROMs from their 1980s era video games available taken down. Seriously, they haven't sold these games in decades. It's not like this is hurting them at all. At some point software, music, and other copyrighted stuff should pass into public domain. We can thank Disney for a lot of this pushing to extend copyrights from a reasonable 14 years to at least 95 years.

About 15 years ago my student loan passed to a different servicer. Prior to that I had been making payments for over 20 years. The payments were just enough to cover interest, but it was all I could afford. The prior servicer applied 100% of my payments to the loan. When the servicer was changed, suddenly I saw about $2,500 added to the balance, and a portion of every payment was "collection fees". They also raised my monthly payment twice, to four times what I was paying before. At the end of nearly two years of these increased payments my balance was more than when the new servicer got the loan. Prior to that, it remained more or less the same. I eventually missed payments and the loan went into default. 2012 was the last time they got a dime from me. I reasoned you want to be greedy, now you're getting nothing. Anyway, my point is any opportunity you have to get one over on people who have taken advantage of you shouldn't be missed. BTW, the aforementioned loan got out of default thanks to Biden's "fresh start" program, and I've been on income-based repayments, which comes to $0 based on my income. Being that I had over 20 years of payments, the loan was supposed to be forgiven but the GOP screwed that up. It probably will be ultimately. There is a new set of things this administration is rolling out, and I qualify for all of them.

 

[sedrosken]

I wouldn't rock the boat and cause an investigation into what exactly was delivered by saying I didn't get them at all, but I'm also not about to inform them of a screwup they made in my favor. That's their job, if they didn't do it, that's on them.

If it were something I was taking possession of for a customer, even, I'd say something, but I'm not about to stick my neck out for a multi-billion dollar company of any stripe.

 

[Mercutio]

Well now I am sad that I don't get to argue with the evangelical Hindu any more.

 

[Handruin]

Was that what they were going on about? I just saw the wall of text and clicked the spam delete button.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm 99% sure it's the same guy as last time. I won't have him belittling my Yazidi faith!

 

[Handruin]

Hell yeah, we don't tolerate that here!

 

[LunarMist]

I'm 99% sure it's the same guy as last time.

Same person or same bots.

 

[Mercutio]

Newegg gave me a $10 gift card for hitting the back button while I was on its checkout screen today.

I had a shopping cart with a dozen Chromebooks, because neither Walmart nor Amazon can deliver the model I was going to buy before the end of the week. Newegg is the same price and they're promising delivery by Thursday. I hit the back button because I thought I'd chosen the wrong delivery address and it popped up and offer me money to finish my checkout.

So hey, free money.

 

[LunarMist]

I wonder if they will continue or stop when everyone finds out.

 

[sedrosken]

My Elitebook developed a weird issue where the q, w, e, r and u, i, o, p keys would just quit working at random. Seemed to be an issue where something got into the keyboard matrix, but it's not like you can take apart these sonically-welded FRU-type components and expect to be able to get them back together. So I bought another one for it. A little pricey at 26 bucks considering these laptops are now sub-200 complete used, but even the slightly newer generation this keyboard also works in is also EOL at this point, so... I'm not terribly surprised they're a little pricey as I expect the stock is starting to dwindle.

Something I found interesting is how I learned HP also used this part for their ZBook line, though what models precisely I'm not sure of -- the ZBooks are a darker grey color than the Elitebooks, and this keyboard is certainly darker. I'm not mad, though, because honestly the two-tone effect looks kind of cool.

Another thing I bought for it was a new battery -- that, I'm far less impressed with. I've done a full discharge and charge cycle on it to calibrate it and it's still saying it's even worse off than the original battery, at 34Whr of the 50Whr rated capacity it's supposed to have vs 36 on the original. This much for a battery that's supposed to be brand new, and has a serial implying date of manufacture sometime in June. It feels like it lasts longer, though, which means I might be being too hard on it, and it might just need a while longer to calibrate.

 

[Mercutio]

3rd party batteries are extremely hit or miss. Put a third party battery in a Thinkpad and it'll pause and force you to acknowledge that you don't have a proper replacement on every boot, but on the other hand I've also never found a replacement to work as well as the OEM ones. Dell Latitudes on the other hand have batteries that seem designed to completely shit themselves about a week after the warranty expires and it's pretty easy to find better options than the crap Dell ships.

 

[sedrosken]

I decided my efforts (and money) were better spent on a battery bank that can do 45W USB-C power delivery than getting another dubious battery for the Elitebook directly, as even with only ~35Whr I'm getting close to 4 hours out of it -- I think with one of those Anker 26800mAh bricks I might well manage to get another full charge out of it, which considering it can also charge my other various and sundry crap, I don't think is a bad deal.

I also grabbed a set of their Soundcore P40i earbuds since I figure it's time for an upgrade from my cheap, nasty skullcandy ones I wear as a keychain, and I want to play with something with active noise cancelling. The Ankers come highly reviewed and very reasonably priced, so all they really need to do to earn a permanent place in my bag is to do better than the skullcandy ones. I figure if they suck, Amazon's return policy is pretty generous.

 

[sedrosken]

Moving this here per Lunar's request.

My brother picked up a Mark VIII in great shape for $6K. [...]

A good bet for decent used cars at reasonable prices is to buy vehicles which were high-end when new. This car cost over $40K when it was new in 1997. Being that they were high-end, they were likely well taken care of, and also better made in the first place. I think he said it has less than 100K miles. [...]

Nice thing is anything over 25 years old can get classic car insurance, which costs low three figures annually.

Those basically don't exist here. The ones that do, the people who originally bought them are still driving them. The same amount would have bought me maybe a mid-2000s Ford Focus with frame rust, 180k+ miles on the odo and transmission issues, to use an example that I actually went to look at. That's how dire the used market is in my area.

The guy I bought my Corolla from when I first moved down wanted 12k for it, he took 8 to do me a favor as I'd just moved down and needed a reliable car. He's a real stand-up guy. I direct people to at least check his inventory out when they're looking for a decent used car. This was before the carpocalypse hit a year later. And the used market isn't a lot better now.

Counterpoint on the 'better made' argument -- the 80s and 90s were the peak of badge engineering. That looks like a tarted-up Mercury Cougar or Ford Thunderbird, and like it wouldn't hold up any better or worse than one of those. I'm glad he got something in good shape, but he got lucky. Those are the cars that got snapped up by the government during Cash for Clunkers. That's my point.

The antique car insurance is an interesting point, though. Do they even offer that if you're not over 25? Seems they wouldn't want to give a young driver a break at all -- I was paying a ton for the minimum coverage to be called comprehensive right up until I got re-rated after my 25th birthday. I opted to only take some savings and upgrade my coverage to the point I can sleep at night.

The $10K EVs BYD in China is making would be another perfect vehicle for young people but it looks like we'll stupidly tariff the hell out of them, thereby denying people truly affordable vehicles.

I never doubted we'd tariff them into oblivion, if just flat-out not allow them for sale here. What I do doubt is their ability to come in priced that low and actually adhere to our safety standards. Nevermind the fact that most young people aren't in ideal situations for owning an EV -- they have no garage or covered space to charge in overnight, for one thing. And out here there's only the barest handful of EV chargers in public spaces.

 

[ddrueding]

I hadn't looked before, but a mid-range BYD Seal Excellence (their small-midsized car) is $85k here. More than a Tesla Model 3.

 

[LunarMist]

The problem with expensive cars when new is that they are often overly complex and repairs are quite expensive when they are old. The MN12/FN10 platform was not good for east coast winters. A friend of mine took the last Lincoln Mark VIII and put in a built mustang modular motor, did a lot of work on the supension and brakes, and a beefed up tranny with higher stall converter. The way the suspension sits is rather weird and needs some work to stiffen the handling. It could do 180MPH, but was not geared right for top speed. The Cougar/T-Bird were lighter weight, but not as luxurious. All of those cars are so archaic that I cannot imagine people wanting them now, but back in the early-mid 2000s the cars could be quite a sleeper with some upgardes.

 

[LunarMist]

I wonder in the Merc watched the latest comic book adaptation, which flopped and had bad reviews. The pretentious French title probably did not help.

 

[jtr1962]

Counterpoint on the 'better made' argument -- the 80s and 90s were the peak of badge engineering. That looks like a tarted-up Mercury Cougar or Ford Thunderbird, and like it wouldn't hold up any better or worse than one of those. I'm glad he got something in good shape, but he got lucky. Those are the cars that got snapped up by the government during Cash for Clunkers. That's my point.

I could ask my brother but I'm pretty sure those are a bit better made. The doors have a nice, solid thunk when you close them.

Sometimes I think Cash For Clunkers was done for the benefit of the car companies.

The antique car insurance is an interesting point, though. Do they even offer that if you're not over 25? Seems they wouldn't want to give a young driver a break at all -- I was paying a ton for the minimum coverage to be called comprehensive right up until I got re-rated after my 25th birthday. I opted to only take some savings and upgrade my coverage to the point I can sleep at night.

Not sure about that. I'll ask my brother.

I never doubted we'd tariff them into oblivion, if just flat-out not allow them for sale here. What I do doubt is their ability to come in priced that low and actually adhere to our safety standards. Nevermind the fact that most young people aren't in ideal situations for owning an EV -- they have no garage or covered space to charge in overnight, for one thing. And out here there's only the barest handful of EV chargers in public spaces.

Run an extension cord out your window. Not fast charging, but better than nothing.

Of course they wouldn't let those sell without tariffs, even if they met our safety standards, because the US automakers would be having a kitten. They want tariffs to prevent competition, instead of figuring out how to make their own $10K EV. I think it's ridiculous the cheapest new cars these days cost more than half what my parents paid for their house. Even accounting for inflation prices are ridiculous. The inflation adjusted price of the Model T was under $10K. No reason we can't have very basic vehicles now for that price. Ditch climate control, air bags, any electronics beyond those needed to work. Use sodium-ion batteries instead of lithium-ion. Make it a one or two seater, maybe with a curb weight well under 2,000 pounds. No need for super fast acceleration. 0 to 60 mph in 15 seconds is fine. Top speed of 80 mph is fine. Maybe exempt cars like this from mandatory insurance. Since we have no interest in providing better transit so most people don't need cars or licenses in the first place, at least make the cost of car ownership a lot less.

 

[jtr1962]

The problem with expensive cars when new is that they are often overly complex and repairs are quite expensive when they are old. The MN12/FN10 platform was not good for east coast winters. A friend of mine took the last Lincoln Mark VIII and put in a built mustang modular motor, did a lot of work on the supension and brakes, and a beefed up tranny with higher stall converter. The way the suspension sits is rather weird and needs some work to stiffen the handling. It could do 180MPH, but was not geared right for top speed. The Cougar/T-Bird were lighter weight, but not as luxurious. All of those cars are so archaic that I cannot imagine people wanting them now, but back in the early-mid 2000s the cars could be quite a sleeper with some upgardes.

The Mark VIIIs can get into the 170s stock if you change the firmware to remove the electronic speed limit. Problem is most of them have a driveshaft vibration which is problematic even at 120 mph. My brother's original Mark VIII had that problem. The new one doesn't as far as he can tell but I think he only had it up to about 100.

His rationale for wanting another one is easy. He doesn't like most of what is made nowadays. He can't afford what he does like. I think he mentioned the Polestar, Ioniq 6, and the Lucid Air. There might have been a few others. He might have gone with a used Tesla if he could have found one under $10K. So why not another Mark VIII when he has the spare parts and the know how?

 

[LunarMist]

Old cars are cool, especially if you don't have to rely on them. I grew up in the era where 1960-1970s cars were just old cars and I gravitated to other hobbies. It's easy to spend 100s of thousands on old cars restomods.

 

[Mercutio]

I wonder in the Merc watched the latest comic book adaptation, which flopped and had bad reviews. The pretentious French title probably did not help.

I don't like the people who currently run WB, actually hated volume 1 in that series and I've NEVER liked DC properties.
Joker 2 managed to get the worst audience reaction scores ever attained by a "super hero" movie, ever. That says nothing about super hero movies generally and everything about how poorly run Warner Brothers can screw up.

 

[sedrosken]

I could ask my brother but I'm pretty sure those are a bit better made. The doors have a nice, solid thunk when you close them.

I imagine better door components to make one feel like that got a better vehicle than they did are relatively cheap. I can’t imagine they’re actually any more mechanically sound powertrain-wise. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that, I think this was the last era in which something this expensive was intended to actually last the buyer a good long time, but I don’t think that strategy of targeting luxury cars has any merit beyond the owner just ostensibly having had the money to properly care for the vehicle.

Sometimes I think Cash For Clunkers was done for the benefit of the car companies.

It quite literally was for the benefit of the car companies. We’d just bailed out GM and Chrysler, to my recollection, and something that’d stop their older, better offerings from competing with themselves is exactly the shot in the arm they needed to maintain enough cash flow to keep the line somewhat steady and the markets stable.

Run an extension cord out your window. Not fast charging, but better than nothing.

That isn’t tenable. I highly doubt you’d get a workable charging rate at all over a 120v outlet limited to 1500W so as to not trip a breaker, to say nothing of the security implications of just leaving a window unlocked and open to have an extension cord ran out front. It’s all too easy for some neighbor or passerby to unplug you from the extension cord, which on its own is a nuisance, but also a way for them to steal power and potentially skyrocket your electric bill. I want EVs to succeed too, but this scenario is one in which ICE cars are still superior.

Of course they wouldn't let those sell without tariffs, even if they met our safety standards, because the US automakers would be having a kitten. They want tariffs to prevent competition, instead of figuring out how to make their own $10K EV. I think it's ridiculous the cheapest new cars these days cost more than half what my parents paid for their house.

You’re not wrong at all, but the other half is this stupid trade war we’re in with China in particular.

The differential makes more sense when you see how much houses, particularly your house, cost now. It doesn’t make it any more affordable as incomes haven’t kept pace, but the numbers do line up a lot more.

Even accounting for inflation prices are ridiculous. The inflation adjusted price of the Model T was under $10K. No reason we can't have very basic vehicles now for that price. Ditch climate control, air bags, any electronics beyond those needed to work. Use sodium-ion batteries instead of lithium-ion. Make it a one or two seater, maybe with a curb weight well under 2,000 pounds. No need for super fast acceleration. 0 to 60 mph in 15 seconds is fine. Top speed of 80 mph is fine.

I’m sorry, you appear to be calling for vehicles with less in the way of safety features — that will never, ever, ever fly. Not in 10 trillion years. And asking anyone to go without climate control as we approach the era of rapidly accelerating temperature rise is laughable. Literally no one would buy it. Air conditioning is already a necessity as far as the masses here stateside are concerned.

Slow acceleration in this day and age is flatly dangerous by itself, too. I looked at a turbo 3-cylinder Ford EcoSport when I was last car shopping and found that even if I floored it, it wasn’t fast enough to maneuver within town like it needed to. I’d get run over trying to make any turn against traffic that wasn’t at a light. Any vehicle has to have the power to at least get out of its own way if you need it to, and that goes double if you’re trying to cut out safety features.

Maybe exempt cars like this from mandatory insurance.

You’re forgetting the reason we have mandatory car insurance. It’s not comprehensive coverage for damage to the vehicle, although if you have your vehicle financed you will generally be required to maintain comprehensive coverage as part of the financing agreement, but the term “state minimum coverage” refers to liability coverage to pay for the medical fees and property damage related to an accident in which the insured is at fault.

We had too many instances of people getting in wrecks, ruining lives with endless medical problems, and then the other party having no recourse other than to sue and hope they had enough assets to cover. If not, even endless wage garnishment would never hope to make the situation whole.

 

[jtr1962]

That isn’t tenable. I highly doubt you’d get a workable charging rate at all over a 120v outlet limited to 1500W so as to not trip a breaker, to say nothing of the security implications of just leaving a window unlocked and open to have an extension cord ran out front. It’s all too easy for some neighbor or passerby to unplug you from the extension cord, which on its own is a nuisance, but also a way for them to steal power and potentially skyrocket your electric bill. I want EVs to succeed too, but this scenario is one in which ICE cars are still superior.

It was just a suggestion if you can route the power in such a way that it doesn't interfere with people on the sidewalk. If more people bought EVs, don't you think parking lots, or even curbside spaces, would start having chargers? NYC is already starting to do this.

The differential makes more sense when you see how much houses, particularly your house, cost now. It doesn’t make it any more affordable as incomes haven’t kept pace, but the numbers do line up a lot more.

Well, housing prices have outpaced inflation even more than car prices. Two wrongs don't make a right. The best comparison is with salaries, which haven't kept pace with skyrocketing costs.

I’m sorry, you appear to be calling for vehicles with less in the way of safety features — that will never, ever, ever fly. Not in 10 trillion years. And asking anyone to go without climate control as we approach the era of rapidly accelerating temperature rise is laughable. Literally no one would buy it. Air conditioning is already a necessity as far as the masses here stateside are concerned.

Not necessarily. Stick a roll cage in the thing, and have 5-point harnesses. Think how little Indy cars weigh, yet drivers walk away from 200 mph crashes into concrete walls. We don't need air bags. We need better restraint systems. We need better drivers too so most collisions don't happen in the first place, but that's another subject. Really, driving habits are appalling. Watch this video:

As for A/C, it should be an option. Some people would prefer to save money and not have it. All I'm saying is give people a choice. My sister was driving an econobox with no A/C for years.

Slow acceleration in this day and age is flatly dangerous by itself, too. I looked at a turbo 3-cylinder Ford EcoSport when I was last car shopping and found that even if I floored it, it wasn’t fast enough to maneuver within town like it needed to. I’d get run over trying to make any turn against traffic that wasn’t at a light. Any vehicle has to have the power to at least get out of its own way if you need it to, and that goes double if you’re trying to cut out safety features.

I put out the 15 second number as sort of an absolute maximum. However, remember electric motors can overload several times their rated power for a few seconds, plus sodium-ion batteries can put out lots of current. Combined with a low curb weight, you'll probably get to 60 mph in well under 10 seconds, even without designing anything specifically for rapid acceleration. Also note that acceleration isn't linear. Even if you took 15 seconds to get to 60 mph, 0 to 30 would be roughly 1/4 of that, maybe 4 seconds. That's plenty of get up and go for local driving. In practice, with 0-60 mph numbers well under 10 seconds, 0 to 30 mph might take roughly 2 seconds. That's around the limits of tire adhesion.

You’re forgetting the reason we have mandatory car insurance. It’s not comprehensive coverage for damage to the vehicle, although if you have your vehicle financed you will generally be required to maintain comprehensive coverage as part of the financing agreement, but the term “state minimum coverage” refers to liability coverage to pay for the medical fees and property damage related to an accident in which the insured is at fault.

We had too many instances of people getting in wrecks, ruining lives with endless medical problems, and then the other party having no recourse other than to sue and hope they had enough assets to cover. If not, even endless wage garnishment would never hope to make the situation whole.

I'm aware of why we have insurance. I'm also aware that standard policies are nowhere near enough if you're at fault in a collision. Yes, you're taking a chance without insurance, even if doing so were legal. However, if you're a safe driver who is highly unlikely to be the cause of a collision, the risk is very small. Maybe insurance premiums should reflect a person's driving habits. Right now we have assigned risk policies which charge poor drivers far less than we should. That makes everyone else's premiums higher. The BS reason for this is if we make driving prohibitive for these people then many couldn't get to work. Not our problem. If someone proves they can't safely drive, they shouldn't be on the road, much less get a subsidy from everyone else to continue driving. If someone is a safe driver, their premiums should be low. I also feel your premiums should be proportional to how much you drive. Risk is actually linear to distance traveled, more or less, so this would be fair.

 

[jtr1962]

Old cars are cool, especially if you don't have to rely on them. I grew up in the era where 1960-1970s cars were just old cars and I gravitated to other hobbies. It's easy to spend 100s of thousands on old cars restomods.

My brother has three 1960s cars in various states of restoration-1969 Mark III, 1968 T-Bird, and 1966 Toronado (which I call the Batmobile). He also has the two Mark VIIIs, a 2003 minivan, and a 2006 Chrysler 300C (formerly my mother's until she was no longer able to drive).

 

[LunarMist]

The '66 Toronado would be my pick of that bunch. The design was so cool at the time and reminiscent of the Avanti, but in a larger more luxurious car. I imagine that it would be difficult to restore nowadays with that funky FWD design.

 

[LunarMist]

I don't like the people who currently run WB, actually hated volume 1 in that series and I've NEVER liked DC properties.
Joker 2 managed to get the worst audience reaction scores ever attained by a "super hero" movie, ever. That says nothing about super hero movies generally and everything about how poorly run Warner Brothers can screw up.

All those movies with the unnatural people are similar to me. I've watched a few on the long haul flights, but they are mostly too frenetic and annoying as if the audience has the ADHD and must be constantly overstimulated. This one appears to be a half-asses musical which is even worse.

 

[LunarMist]

Tiny cars don't work for normal people that have families other than as a 2nd or 3rd car. You need to at least haul around 5 people, child car seat, people's stuff, etc. and be reasonably safe against crazy drivers out of your control.

Most people do not want to live in the large cities anymore, rather further out where housing is larger for the same cost. Saving money on a home and spending a little more for transportation is a thing.

I had to read up on the Car Allowance Rebate System that occurred in 2009. I was quite busy at the time and not aware of it. All of our cars were six YO or less, so it was irrelevant.

 

[sedrosken]

It was just a suggestion if you can route the power in such a way that it doesn't interfere with people on the sidewalk. If more people bought EVs, don't you think parking lots, or even curbside spaces, would start having chargers? NYC is already starting to do this.

I think that'd exclusively happen in the bigger cities and the smaller towns would more or less be the same as they always were. They do like to pride themselves on that fact. And making people put the cart before the horse and just make do for a while without the infrastructure they need isn't going to work, I don't think.

Well, housing prices have outpaced inflation even more than car prices. Two wrongs don't make a right. The best comparison is with salaries, which haven't kept pace with skyrocketing costs.

On that we agree, I think I just didn't do a great job of illustrating that. I'm one of those people that are unlikely to be able to afford to own a home in their lifetime, you don't have to tell me that housing costs being high is a bad thing. Seems like every time I hit a point where it used to be possible, house prices ratchet right back up to specifically keep me out of the homeowners' club.

Not necessarily. Stick a roll cage in the thing, and have 5-point harnesses. Think how little Indy cars weigh, yet drivers walk away from 200 mph crashes into concrete walls. We don't need air bags. We need better restraint systems. We need better drivers too so most collisions don't happen in the first place, but that's another subject. Really, driving habits are appalling. [...]

I think it'd be a tough sell on optics, but I guess if the prices were low enough, people would get over it.

As for A/C, it should be an option. Some people would prefer to save money and not have it. All I'm saying is give people a choice. My sister was driving an econobox with no A/C for years.

And I bet she never would again. My mom bought a similar econobox in the 80s and almost immediately traded it back in. Even back then the summers in the Chicago suburbs were awful.

I put out the 15 second number as sort of an absolute maximum. However, remember electric motors can overload several times their rated power for a few seconds, plus sodium-ion batteries can put out lots of current. Combined with a low curb weight, you'll probably get to 60 mph in well under 10 seconds, even without designing anything specifically for rapid acceleration. Also note that acceleration isn't linear. Even if you took 15 seconds to get to 60 mph, 0 to 30 would be roughly 1/4 of that, maybe 4 seconds. That's plenty of get up and go for local driving. In practice, with 0-60 mph numbers well under 10 seconds, 0 to 30 mph might take roughly 2 seconds. That's around the limits of tire adhesion.

That's fair enough. I suppose I wasn't really thinking in terms of an electric vehicle for that argument, and I'm aware that those get up to speed frighteningly quick even in cases where the maximum speed isn't any impressively large number. I just mapped 'slow acceleration' to the only valid experience I could assign to it, and that test drive will forever haunt my memories, to be quite honest.

[...] Maybe insurance premiums should reflect a person's driving habits. Right now we have assigned risk policies which charge poor drivers far less than we should. That makes everyone else's premiums higher. The BS reason for this is if we make driving prohibitive for these people then many couldn't get to work. Not our problem. If someone proves they can't safely drive, they shouldn't be on the road, much less get a subsidy from everyone else to continue driving. If someone is a safe driver, their premiums should be low. I also feel your premiums should be proportional to how much you drive. Risk is actually linear to distance traveled, more or less, so this would be fair.

With the snapshot programs several providers offer, there's an argument to be made that we're already there. They can make them mandatory over my cold corpse, however, because I tried one of the OBD devices early on when I had my Corolla, and it registered every single brake event as a hard brake. Having to come to an abrupt stop because someone pulled out in front of me was fair enough, a surprise red light was also fair enough, but it was at the point where I could use my pinky toe and not even slow by 1mph and it'd beep at me like I'd just squealed tires. There was no keeping it happy.

I asked their support about it and eventually concluded that it was a matter of either allowing their defective OBD dongle to continue getting everything wrong, allow their spyware on my phone to track me via my phone's GPS, or opt-out of the program and take a rate hike as a penalty. So I took the rate hike and sent them their defective hardware back. You know the funniest part was that when I'd signed up for the program, the agent swore up and down that it could only decrease rates, never increase them. I hope that guy got fired, because I called him out over it in the exit feedback I gave.

And if we're going to functionally bar most of America from driving to work (which, I agree with you, we should) we're either going to have an economic apocalypse or we're going to have to implement workable public transit. Which not only would never happen, but it'd defeat the purpose of your cheap electric car, too.

 

[jtr1962]

On that we agree, I think I just didn't do a great job of illustrating that. I'm one of those people that are unlikely to be able to afford to own a home in their lifetime, you don't have to tell me that housing costs being high is a bad thing. Seems like every time I hit a point where it used to be possible, house prices ratchet right back up to specifically keep me out of the homeowners' club.

Not just you. In the late 1980s I was banking practically every dime I made hoping to be able to buy a house with cash, and eventually move out of my parent's place. Housing prices were rising faster than I could save. I resigned myself to just staying with my parents (rents at the time were 75% of my take-home pay, plus renting is essentially indentured servitude). We did have relatives who managed to buy homes like this (i.e. bank one person's pay for maybe 10 years, then buy a house outright with cash), but that was when home prices kept pace with salaries, not outpaced them by several times.

My 31 year old niece is still with my sister. She recently got engaged, but who knows when she'll be on her own. Even with two salaries, it'll be hard.

That's fair enough. I suppose I wasn't really thinking in terms of an electric vehicle for that argument, and I'm aware that those get up to speed frighteningly quick even in cases where the maximum speed isn't any impressively large number. I just mapped 'slow acceleration' to the only valid experience I could assign to it, and that test drive will forever haunt my memories, to be quite honest.

If you think your experience was bad, one of my mother's friends had a Chevette diesel. I checked the road test numbers somewhere. That thing took over 30 seconds to reach 60 mph. That's worse than some buses.

With the snapshot programs several providers offer, there's an argument to be made that we're already there. They can make them mandatory over my cold corpse, however, because I tried one of the OBD devices early on when I had my Corolla, and it registered every single brake event as a hard brake. Having to come to an abrupt stop because someone pulled out in front of me was fair enough, a surprise red light was also fair enough, but it was at the point where I could use my pinky toe and not even slow by 1mph and it'd beep at me like I'd just squealed tires. There was no keeping it happy.

I asked their support about it and eventually concluded that it was a matter of either allowing their defective OBD dongle to continue getting everything wrong, allow their spyware on my phone to track me via my phone's GPS, or opt-out of the program and take a rate hike as a penalty. So I took the rate hike and sent them their defective hardware back. You know the funniest part was that when I'd signed up for the program, the agent swore up and down that it could only decrease rates, never increase them. I hope that guy got fired, because I called him out over it in the exit feedback I gave.

I don't know why these snapshot programs track hard braking. Often that's out of your control. Hard acceleration maybe not, but even that should have allowances for getting on expressways. What they should look for is constantly changing lanes to gain a car length or two, going more than a few mph over the speed limit, failure to yield to pedestrians (that would require cameras to track), passing red signals/stop signs, double parking, driving in bus/bike lanes, etc. All these things make collisions more likely. They're also the things I see the most reckless drivers doing all the time.

And if we're going to functionally bar most of America from driving to work (which, I agree with you, we should) we're either going to have an economic apocalypse or we're going to have to implement workable public transit. Which not only would never happen, but it'd defeat the purpose of your cheap electric car, too.

I'd actually be happy if the purpose of my cheap electric car was defeated due to much better public transit. In the end if most people got around by public transit the roads would far safer. People would save lots of money also. I do think we should electrify motor vehicles regardless, but at the same time we should radically decrease the need for one.

Unfortunately, the GOP has a unique hatred of public transit. The Koch brothers have singlehandedly killed a bunch of proposals.

 

[sedrosken]

[...] My 31 year old niece is still with my sister. She recently got engaged, but who knows when she'll be on her own. Even with two salaries, it'll be hard.

I'm lucky enough to be able to say I'm at least out on my own, even if at times it's not very fun. On the one hand, I wish Dad had come with me so for once in his life he wouldn't be worried about money (as I'd be shouldering the living expenses) but on the other, he'd hate it down here. I don't particularly like it and I experience most of it indoors in the air conditioning. Add to that the fact that he smokes and I can't handle that anymore (I have to go out for fresh air frequently when I visit him now) and that I don't think it's very fair to make him smoke outside in the Florida heat and that makes a few reasons it wouldn't be tenable.

If you think your experience was bad, one of my mother's friends had a Chevette diesel. I checked the road test numbers somewhere. That thing took over 30 seconds to reach 60 mph. That's worse than some buses.

I've heard the legends, seen some videos of survivors of the era. At least then they had the excuse that not very many cars without a V8 could accelerate very well -- even some with, thanks to the smog regulations of the era and, more specifically, American car manufacturers' collective failure to adapt to them within a reasonable timeframe.

[...] What they should look for is constantly changing lanes to gain a car length or two, going more than a few mph over the speed limit, failure to yield to pedestrians (that would require cameras to track), passing red signals/stop signs, double parking, driving in bus/bike lanes, etc. All these things make collisions more likely. They're also the things I see the most reckless drivers doing all the time.

Now that I could get behind, even if I don't think current technologies and sensibilities are up to the task without manual human review. I think the combination of a loaner dashcam and OBD dongle could tell the whole story, but the data would have to be combed through by a human.

 

[jtr1962]

I've heard the legends, seen some videos of survivors of the era. At least then they had the excuse that not very many cars without a V8 could accelerate very well -- even some with, thanks to the smog regulations of the era and, more specifically, American car manufacturers' collective failure to adapt to them within a reasonable timeframe.

Speaking of slow, here's a road test of a 1969 Greyhound bus:

Vintage R&T Road Test: 1969 MCI MC-7 Greyhound Bus - 0-60 in 87 Seconds - Curbside Classic

I well remember this review when it was new. As a bus aficionado, Now that was an unexpected treat. And I had wondered for some time just how long it […]

www.curbsideclassic.com

You pretty much drive with it floored all the time.

 

[LunarMist]

The subcompact Chevette was a POS in any form. It made the crummy Citation seem great by comparison. LOL
You could get a decent Rabbit (US version of the Golf) for a little more money. You could upgrade to a Celebrity in 1980, which was more of a middle classed car.

How many times were they going 0-60 rather than at a relatively constant speed back then? Unless you were the bus driver, what difference does it make about the bus other than getting to each station on time? I'm sure they optimized the costs for all considerations back then. Accelerating faster would have required a larger engine and worse fuel economy to save some seconds. Greyhounds were long haul IIRC.

 

[jtr1962]

How many times were they going 0-60 rather than at a relatively constant speed back then? Unless you were the bus driver, what difference does it make about the bus other than getting to each station on time? I'm sure they optimized the costs for all considerations back then. Accelerating faster would have required a larger engine and worse fuel economy to save some seconds. Greyhounds were long haul IIRC.

That's obviously what they did. Fuel economy was and is everything when it comes to bus operations. That said, you can get somewhat better acceleration (and probably better fuel economy) by going with more gears. Modern buses typically have 5 or 6 speed transmissions. The MC-7 could have used another gear between 3 and 4.

For local and suburban type services acceleration does matter a lot more than it does for intercity services like Greyhound. Not necessarily 0 to 60 mph, but 0 to 20 mph or 0 to 30 mph are important. In those speed ranges gearing matters more than horsepower. Hybrid buses go one better by using small batteries and electric motors to get better acceleration without more horsepower. And of course you have electric buses. One of them managed 0 to 60 mph in a bit over 20 seconds.

Here's a database of a whole bunch of bus tests:

Bus List | Penn State Engineering

 

[LunarMist]

I remember the Midnight Cowboy when Rizzo died of the TB or whatever on the Greyhound. Fortunately I never had to take a bus anywhere. In SoCal we had cars and aircraft like the 707, 720B, 727, 737, DC-8, and DC-9.

 

[jtr1962]

I'm not big on buses for long-distance transport myself. A train is worlds more comfortable.

 

[Mercutio]

re: Chevettes.

Growing up, my closest neighbor kept buying them. They were the epitome of white trash, Jerry Springer-guest types. Youngest daughter pregnant at 12. Younger son hasn't had more than 6 months out of state prison in 30 years. Great folks all around. Anyway, the guy who lived next door to my old family home just kept buying Chevettes. I always remember their back yard being full of half-wrecked cars. I didn't think anything of it. We lived in the country.

One of my dad's employees bought not just our old house but also the other properties around our old house, the scumbag neighbor home and some land that was being used for someone's stable and horse pasture.

The funny thing about him getting the neighbor's home was that he was the first person to investigate the property after he evicted the family (they had not ever paid the pittance of property taxes they owed; he got the house and land for something like $1700). There were thirty three junked Chevettes on the lot. Some of them were just stacked on top of other ones, which is actually even weirder because there was no evidence of a crane or rigging to move cars around like that. There weren't any even and other kinds of cars. Chevette-only junkyard.

 

[jtr1962]

The curb weight of a Chevette is only around 2,000 pounds. Remove the engine, transmission, and seats, probably well under 1,000 pounds. A few strong guys could lift it. Or maybe they used jacks and cinderblocks to lift them. I actually got a ~1,500 pound boulder out of the vegetable garden that way.

I remember once me, my brother, and the kid two houses down from us pranked someone who parked an econobox on our block. May have been a Chevette. Anyway, the three of us easily lifted the back end and moved it a few feet.

I'd love to know why they bought 33 Chevettes. It takes talent to wreck that many cars. And daughter pregnant at 12? Was that courtesy of her father, brother, or uncle by any chance? What a lovely bunch to have as neighbors. Sounds like they could have played extras in Idiocracy.

 

[LunarMist]

Possibly they were selling parts from the scrapped cars like a private junkyard. If you had a functional, but old Chevette it would be a one-stop shop for used parts at an affordable price. Or maybe they had a mental health issue and enjoyed accumulating crappy cars.

 

[LunarMist]

I'm not big on buses for long-distance transport myself. A train is worlds more comfortable.

But they only go to a few places and not really long distances. For example we were on three continents in three hemispheres in about 24 hours in September. Airbuds and Boeing do that, not the trains. I've done as much at 7 airports, 5 countries, 3 continents, and 2 hemispheres in one <40 hour time period on commercial flights. Some of the legs have no viable alternatives unless you want to risk the plane being shot down.