Windows Home Server / Home Server OS

Stereodude

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What exactly is WHS? I read the Wikipedia entry on it and the MS Page, but I still don't really know what it is.

Is it a full blown OS that you can install any program to, or is it solely for the tasks they advertise?

The reason I ask is because my server in the basement runs Windows XP Pro which doesn't support GPT which leaves me up a creek should I attempt to use RAID arrays greater than 2TB. Of course it seems WHS doesn't seem to support GPT either...

Short of going Linux, what is the right OS to run on my server in the basement for when I want to use RAID arrays greater than 2TB? A basic version of Vista?
 

Stereodude

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Oh, I hadn't thought of that. I guess I need to make sure the few apps I do run on the server work under XP 64-bit.
 

ddrueding

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...if you don't have to learn all of Linux just to do it.

I completely agree that it is the better file-serving platform, with better support for volumes and better filesystems, but if you don't know it, or your apps won't run on it, it doesn't really count.

I wish I knew Linux, and I know it would be worthwhile to do so, I just don't have the time.
 

Fushigi

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WHS is based off the SBS 2003 core. I've posted about it elsewhere but in a nutshell:
- it does file sharing
- automated backup of workstations running Windows (includes recovery boot CD)
- backups do data de-duplication so no file in your network is backed up more than once which saves on storage
- runs headless (there's a console widget for the workstation)
- includes SSL-based file sharing to the web (yourmachine.homeserver.com)
- the 'net access also allows RDP to your Windows machines over the web
- the 'net access uses user IDs & security settings you control; weak passwords are not allowed.
- the web access uses uPNP to configure your router automatically
- certain messages can be seen across all workstations, so you will be notified if your kid turns off their AV or if backups fail to run.
and so on.
- WHS does not support wireless on the server but clients can be wireless.

There are also extensions both free and paid. One I'm looking at will automatically rip a DVD placed in the WHS optical drive. Insert DVD, come back in 20 minutes, the tray is open, insert the next.

You don't need RAID to get the same effect. Just add drives of whatever capacity using whatever connection method (USB, SATA, etc.) and tell it to duplicate the folders. It manages everything. I've got 1.5TB and 500GB internal drives and just added a 1.5TB USB drive.

IMO it's a good solution if your home machines are Windows-based. Mac & Linux clients can access it and use the resources but don't get the automation advantages for backups nor can they run the console widget.

Also, it's a good solution if you really don't want to bother with "managing a server". It basically does everything for you once you set it up. After working on systems all day long it can be refreshing to be able to simply ignore the server and know it's there & doing it's thing. It isn't for you if you want to tinker with settings endlessly. It is for you if you want as close to plug and play as you can get.

I initially built it for the automated backup capability after my wife's machine had a drive crash and we lost some photos that weren't backed up. I compared it to a handful of Acronis licenses + some drives and it was comparable in price but offered way more functionality.
 

Mercutio

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It's fairly trivial to get Acronis Home or Workstation licenses. Hell, sometimes they give them to me.

But anyway, the big, big, big HUGE reason I like using Linux for fileservers is that I can add drives to SoftRAID arrays in-place. Granted I can do this on expensive hardware, but that's not everything I have to work with.

Another problem, and I'll admit it's a mild one, with Windows backup tech is that it's file-based. If a file changes, the whole file is replicated. Acronis stores byte-level changes.
 

Bozo

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One thing to keep in mind if you install WHS. It will erase and format every drive attached to the box you are installing it on. During the Beta, a lot of people missed the warning and it wiped out a lot of their stuff. It needs to be on a stand alone box.
 

Fushigi

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I don't know who "they" are but Acronis lists Home at $49.99 and it's $29.99 at Newegg. I was buying to support 5-6 machines. WHS doesn't have CALs as far as I know so adding another workstation does not mean you need another backup app license.

True Image doesn't do the data de-duplication and WHS lets you go back ("Time Machine" effect) up to 90 days (by default). It's probably close to a wash in terms of required storage space. In TI you can merge backups which would help but the WHS de-dupe functions across your environment, not an individual machine.

And as noted the "SoftRAID" capability is built in. WHS does it at the folder level; you pick and choose which folders you want to duplicate. PC Backups, for instance, I don't duplicate as they're duplicates already (of the PCs they're backing up).
 

Fushigi

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One thing to keep in mind if you install WHS. It will erase and format every drive attached to the box you are installing it on. During the Beta, a lot of people missed the warning and it wiped out a lot of their stuff. It needs to be on a stand alone box.
No it doesn't. It recommends it but you can keep the existing format. Perhaps they changed that between beta & GA.
 

Stereodude

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One thing to keep in mind if you install WHS. It will erase and format every drive attached to the box you are installing it on. During the Beta, a lot of people missed the warning and it wiped out a lot of their stuff. It needs to be on a stand alone box.
I sounds like it's definitely not what I'm after. I'll dig more into XP x64.
 

Mercutio

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I don't know who "they" are but Acronis lists Home at $49.99 and it's $29.99 at Newegg.

Acronis offers free licenses from time to time for people who have agreed to beta test products, made volume purchases of client licenses or have purchased server licenses. I'm in all three categories. I get offered free licenses three or four times a year.

On top of that, anyone who has a Seagate or Maxtor drive attached to their PC can install a rebranded version of TrueImage.

True Image doesn't do the data de-duplication and WHS lets you go back ("Time Machine" effect) up to 90 days (by default). It's probably close to a wash in terms of required storage space.

Only on supported Windows machines. *My* home environment has Linux and OSX systems (though ironically not any Macs any more) as well.

For what it's worth, I consider the Windows and Program Files folders to be entirely expendable; those would presumably benefit most from data de-duplication, but you should be storing media and user created data centrally way.

TI will also store backups locally or on a network share (or FTP location, even), which is very handy if you've ever had to wait for 140GB of stuff to copy over 100Mbit.


Fushigi said:
And as noted the "SoftRAID" capability is built in.

Technically, SoftRAID is built into EVERY version of NT-based Windows. A little noodling with some config files and a couple registry settings lets XP or even 2000 Workstation to create Striped Volumes with Parity (RAID5).

It looks like WHS isn't doing RAID in the first place, but just copying data to more than one hard drive. I implement that strategy, too, but I'm doing that on top of the fault-tolerant arrays.

On Windows Striped Volumes with Parity, to expand the volume requires copying all the data off, deleting the original volume and recreating it with added capacity. That's lame.

At the same time, I - I don't know about anyone else - need the ability to create enormous contiguous spaces for data storage. A piddling 1 or 2TB isn't going to cut it for me. This is als a benefit of RAID. I need that. I think that's important.

Granted that I can use Windows Server whenever I like, and there are situations where I do use it. It's an acceptable desktop for me, for example.

But if what I care about is mass file storage, I'm doing that on a Linux system because it is vastly more flexible in how it presents storage to the rest of the network. That is very important and useful, and if it's less than automatic, I don't mind a bit, since it's giving me something that Windows just DOESN'T.
 

Fushigi

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I've been buying the Seagate drives and they've not mentioned DiscWizard anywhere I've noticed in the manual. A coworler picked up a FreeAgent and it came bundled with some POS backup app that only backs up documents and does not do the OS or programs. It's fast but you're stuck with a reinstall if your drive crashes. I'll see if she can get the DiscWizard.

Re: Enormous spaces. WHS presents a single share and not a drive letter that directly maps to a drive on the server. I'm not sure what the volume max size is but I do know it aggregated the drives when presenting free space.

Yes, WHS is just copying the files more than once. But for a home network that's fine. Less to manage. The only negative is the OS partition is not 'RAIDed' although it can be backed up.

For de-duping, the OS and program files are the most likely candidates. But we also keep our photo libraries on multiple PCs to have them available locally for wallpaper and whatnot. There's also some decent overlap in music as we haven't gotten organized enough to simply push everything to the server.

Anyway, with Linux and OSX clients WHS is most likely not the ideal way to go for your situation.

Speaking of clients, I did see somewhere that WHS is limited to 10 client machines. Still not bad for the price & capabilities and is plenty for all but the most extreme households.
 

Bozo

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No it doesn't. It recommends it but you can keep the existing format. Perhaps they changed that between beta & GA.
Your probably right. The first time I installed it, it wiped out everything. It was a test box, so no big deal.
Can you buy WHS without hardware? At first it was only going to be available from venders pre-installed. That's when I lost interest in it.
 

Mercutio

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There are a couple sweet little appliance servers with WHS on them. Shoeboxes with four or five hotswap trays. If I hadn't just spent $900 buying an APC Netshelter and a paid of large rackmount cases I'd be lusting for those.
 

Handruin

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You can? It's not available from my Action Pack or my Microsoft Partner login.

It was a recent addition to the MSDN. I looked a while ago and it wasn't available, but it is available now. If you haven't look recently, see if it's there now.
 

Mercutio

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There are a couple sweet little appliance servers with WHS on them. Shoeboxes with four or five hotswap trays.

I just bought one of these for a customer. Hopefully it'll just sit in a corner with 4TB of disks in it and by a nice file and backup server for them. If WHS is less than perfect I'm sure it'll do just as well as a Linux/Samba server.

I really like the form factor, though.
 

Fushigi

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I decided to blow away my Win7 Beta build & restore it back to the original Vista install. I booted from the WHS Restore CD, put in the admin password for the server, selected the machine name & backup date to restore from, and off it went. It noted that some machines may need network drivers but didn't for this one (Marvell). I'm not sure how long it took as we left the house but I don't think it was very long. Probably under 30 minutes. When we got back it was sitting at the Vista login prompt.

A backup is never complete until you've tested the restore and with this I'm confident in WHS' ability to restore any of our machines.

Truly, this was about as painless as could be hoped for.
 

Handruin

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How much space does it consume to backup the entire system? Is it a 1 to 1 relation with the amount of space consumed from your original install? Does WHS compress the backups or anything?

Otherwise that does sound a very seamless backup and restore.
 

Fushigi

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I don't believe it compresses the backup but because it does data deduplication, each file is only ever backed up once on the server. The de-dupe extends to all machines it backs up so for my 3 Vista machines there's arguably only 1 backup of Vista on the server.

The daily incremental backups use volume shadow services so they only back up the changed blocks.

Edit to add: While I'm a huge believer in compressed backups on servers where there is tons of data, on workstations I'm not convinced they're of that great a value any more. Considering that programs & media files either don't compress well or are already in a compressed format, the main things that benefit from compression are documents and those will be a very small percentage of the space consumed on a modern workstation.
 

sechs

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I've always consider compression to be important when long-term storage and data throughput are issues. Basic compression takes very little processing power, but can reduce the amount of data saved quite a bit.
 

Fushigi

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I agree that compression overhead is minimal but I'm not seeing where the performance gains would come from. Music files are probably already in MP3 or another compressed format so there's no gain there. Many pictures will be in JPG, which is also already compressed. TIFFs or other raw formats might gain. Applications (exes, dlls) don't compress well. All of my Word & Excel docs take up just a few MB.

Really, a daily backup to WHS takes just a couple of minutes per machine unless lots of stuff has been done. Remember, it uses VSS so it only has to back up changed clusters.

If compression is important in your environment, compress the files on the workstation. WHS honors NTFS compression settings.
 

Handruin

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That's not surprising. VSS really is a toy. At work we're a mixture of clearcase, perforce, and now Subversion (we're transitioning off perforce to svn).
 

sechs

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I agree that compression overhead is minimal but I'm not seeing where the performance gains would come from. Music files are probably already in MP3 or another compressed format so there's no gain there. Many pictures will be in JPG, which is also already compressed. TIFFs or other raw formats might gain. Applications (exes, dlls) don't compress well.
You've confused "doesn't compress well" with "doesn't compress at all."

An amazing amount of space can be saved compressing the headers of compressed files. Particularly when you have to keep back-ups for long periods, a few gigabytes here and there adds up.
 

MaxBurn

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I am thinking about taking the plunge and building one of these things but I have some questions. I have read "Technical Brief, Windows Home Server Drive Extender" and it all seems straight forward and geared to simplicity on the user level and also discusses how data duplication works which all seems well and good.

What happens if the home server looses the OS drive? Is the OS 20gb partition duplicated to another drive too? They can't have ignored that problem but the tech brief doesn't exactly say how that situation is dealt with. Maybe it backs itself up like any other client?

Device drivers for network storage adapters etc, basically just use the drivers for server 2003?

Thinking about this motherboard welcome comments. Basically I like the price, 6 SATA ports, integrated video and network plus it is one of the two manufacturers I generally trust for motherboards these days.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121349

Is windows home server OS only sold as OEM with no retail available? Is there even activation and product key to worry about?
 

LunarMist

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What happens if the home server looses the OS drive? Is the OS 20gb partition duplicated to another drive too? They can't have ignored that problem but the tech brief doesn't exactly say how that situation is dealt with. Maybe it backs itself up like any other client?

Maybe the OS drive will flit about the server room, joyous in its newfound freedom. :)
 
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