Something Random

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,302
Location
I am omnipresent
And things are some much better elsewhere how?

Most of the population of Europe pretty much thinks of religion as the quaint thing their grandparents do.

Even "conservative" nations like Italy, Spain, Ireland and Mexico have legalized abortion and gay marriage. Apparently lawmakers in those countries understand the difference between the morality imposed by their religion and the personal freedoms of another person.


What areas did they poll? What demographics? I don't believe 1000 people represent the belief of 300,000,000 (minus a few for those below the age of 18).

Didn't you ever take a stats class?
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,746
Location
Horsens, Denmark
... Sadly, where I live, I'm surrounded by them.

That's too bad Merc. At the club I went to (south of SF) most of the people there were .com-ers looking for something different. Nearly everyone kept their guns at the club; I was part of a group that kept a collection, so I never actually bought a gun, just "bought in" and got to shoot a variety stuff.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
Most of the population of Europe pretty much thinks of religion as the quaint thing their grandparents do.

Really, where did this info come from? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't fully believe it. Was it another 1000 person poll?


Didn't you ever take a stats class?

Nope, but please explain why you believe my thoughts are wrong? Polls like that are useless IMHO other than to prove the point you want to make.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,302
Location
I am omnipresent
This warms the cockles of my heart.

Handy, most statistical polling is done with samples that you'd probably think are staggering for their smallness. Presidential polls are usually taken from samples of 500 or 1000 or maybe 2000 people. If you remember from the '04 election, there were 10 or 12 polling firms that were releasing the same sorts of polls and there was very seldom a difference of more than a fraction of a percentage point between any of them.
For the most part, if you have a truly random sample of people and a very narrow issue to consider (a binary choice), once you get beyond a certain fraction of a population size, you just end up becoming more statistically certain. Going much further than that statistical confirmation and you're just spinning your wheels, wasting time and money.
Turns out, 1000, 2000 people is about all you need to get an accurate picture of what people think in the USA... as long as they are selected randomly. Now, there are some self-selecting biases in polling; people who answer polls are... people who answer polls. People who have TIME to answer polls, and aren't bothered by them (the elderly, bored housewives et al), but I presume this can be eliminated with demographic information.

Tannin is the guy with the statistics degree though. He can probably give a better explanation than I can.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
Pradeep and Sol - not a big fan of guns. More particularly, I'm not a big fan of the sort of person who is a big fan of guns in the USA. It's one thing to talk about sport shooting with a gun you keep at the range, or hunting for something you'll actually eat, but the minute you start to oppose sensible things like banning semi-automatics, or gun locks, or background checks, or demanding concealed carry rights, you're well off into wing-nut land, and that's exactly the rhetoric that comes from the NRA. Those are people who frighten me.

Sadly, where I live, I'm surrounded by them.

I don't want to divert the flow of this thread, but why particularly do you want to ban semi-autos? They are used in international shooting competitions. As for concealed carry, it isn't an available option in Illinois. However, almost all other States do allow concealed carry by appropriately licensed citizens. I can't remember the last time there was a crime committed with a licensed concealed pistol. Certainly no blood in the streets as the anti-gunners would have had us believe. The gang bangers tend to not obey existing gun laws, such as no posession is you are a convicted felon, psychiatirc problems, etc.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
34% of USians believe the biblical account of creation (you know, the one that's two different stories of how woman came to be on PAGE ONE of the book... the bible can't even manage to be consistent for two whole paragraphs).

Little wonder the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of undereducated fanatics.

You are an uneducated fanatic about the Bible. Its always amusing watching you emotionally comment about a piece of biblical history or literature. It is not difficult to reconcile the two biblical accounts. Yes, there are two accounts in Genesis 2 but they are not contradictory or even inconsistent. The second story is an elaboration of a part of the first.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,746
Location
Horsens, Denmark
The bible doesn't have to be inconsistent to be hated. I despise the thing. Which has caused more bloodshed over history, it or Mein Kampf?

The unfortunate thing is that people keep believing in the bible....
 

LOST6200

Storage is cool
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
737
Balh! No points is arguing abou the difereneces religions, it justy make sevryone crayzx. :(
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,302
Location
I am omnipresent
You are an uneducated fanatic about the Bible. Its always amusing watching you emotionally comment about a piece of biblical history or literature.

It's likewise hilarious to find individuals who claim to believe the whole and literal truth of the bible as the revealed word of god. Those same people have to begin making exceptions literally on the first page of the book... if they managed to read that far.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
ok, go start a bible thread and beat each other up there. You will both never convince the other of your views...I think we've proven this years ago.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
The bible doesn't have to be inconsistent to be hated. I despise the thing. Which has caused more bloodshed over history, it or Mein Kampf?

The unfortunate thing is that people keep believing in the bible....

You have the right to feel about it however you want, of course. Why is it that you despise it so?

-----

Mein Kampf was first published in 1925. Hitler first came to power after the end of WWI, in 1918. Although it is not true, let's assume Mein Kampf lost its influence at the end of WWII, 1945. That's 27 years of influence. How much good or evil is due to 27 years of influence of Mein Kampf.

Are you aware of any good to come out of living out the philosophies in Mein Kampf?
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
ok, go start a bible thread and beat each other up there. You will both never convince the other of your views...I think we've proven this years ago.

My objective is actually not to convince anyone of my views. My only wish is for people to honestly evaluate what the Bible says. And I do intend to expose logical fallacies in thinking. I would expect anyone to do the same for me.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,302
Location
I am omnipresent
Just to take this conversation to the land of Godwin's Law:

Mein Kampf is a book that has had a localized effect on history. It is undoubtedly an important text, but only for a few decades.

In historical terms, it's just a promising rookie prospect to your holy book's solid lifetime performance.

The bible has been used to justify centuries of criminal acts and generations of suffering for both believers and non-believers. For every supposed great work of art or charity, for every glorious human endeavor in its name, there have been countless times that some believer has used its passages in the service of tyranny.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
The bible has been used to justify centuries of criminal acts and generations of suffering for both believers and non-believers. For every supposed great work of art or charity, for every glorious human endeavor in its name, there have been countless times that some believer has used its passages in the service of tyranny.

You are right, the bible has been used in error for centuries to justify horrible behavior. It would certainly be difficult to quantify.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,302
Location
I am omnipresent
I don't want to divert the flow of this thread, but why particularly do you want to ban semi-autos? They are used in international shooting competitions.

OK. But as a general rule, I'm thinking that high rate of fire is not something that every citizen of the USA has any legitimate reason to have. If you're hunting, there aren't many circumstances *I* know of where you're going to get off more than one shot against whatever varmint got you in your safety orange camo that day. If you're defending your home, greater rate of fire is only going to lend itself to more indiscriminate shooting and therefore the possibility of hurting someone besides the intended target.

Yes, I think guns kill people.
Yes, law-abiding gun nuts (I mean that in this case as a non-pejorative) train themselves to properly use firearms.
Way too many people have guns who do not know how to properly use them.
The largest share of those people have no desire to receive proper training.
Therefore, I feel that we are better off with guns that are, to the extent that they can be, less lethal rather than more.
Ergo, I'd rather see shotguns or rifles or revolvers than something with a magazine that fires as fast as you can squeeze a trigger.

As for concealed carry, it isn't an available option in Illinois. However, almost all other States do allow concealed carry by appropriately licensed citizens. I can't remember the last time there was a crime committed with a licensed concealed pistol. Certainly no blood in the streets as the anti-gunners would have had us believe. The gang bangers tend to not obey existing gun laws, such as no posession is you are a convicted felon, psychiatirc problems, etc.

I live in Indiana, land of shotgun racks attached to the back window of pickup trucks...

I am worried about the mental health of anyone who feels that he or she has to be carrying a hidden firearm, particularly absent a credible and specific threat to their person. That person is in my opinion paranoid. I would further suggest that, given the fact that the gun in question is "concealed", that is deterrent effect of an openly carried weapon is no longer present. This would lead me to believe that the primary reason one would carry a hidden gun is because the person carrying it is looking for an excuse to use it.
 

Sol

Storage is cool
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Messages
960
Location
Cardiff (Wales)
I think Australian gun laws, whilst still odd in parts, are much more sensible than the US laws.

The only semi-autos allowed are rimfires (.22s mostly) and shotguns (pump actions are in here too). Both require a class C licence (so you have to a primary producer who needs to protect livestock from foxes or something), they can't hold more than 5 rounds, and you can only have one of each.

You have to have a legitimate reason for any gun you want to buy and be able to substantiate that reason. (except rimfires, shotguns or paintball guns)

Self defence is not a legitimate reason. (Hunting and target shooting are about the only two that can apply to most people)

Most target rifles I've come across don't even have a magazine let alone fire semi-auto... The slight reduction in rigidity resulting from the hole where the rounds feed in isn't considered worth the time it saves over feeding rounds through the ejection port.

Actually semi-auto handguns are also legal but are a whole different kettle of fish. You must enter at least one official competition every 6 months or you lose your licence and have to sell your handguns.

I can see why some Americans insist that it is their second amendment right to bear whatever arms they like... I think they're right... But if their reason for owning a gun is to fight a corrupt government I do wonder exactly what they're waiting for.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
A semi-auto fires one round for each press of the trigger. A double-action revolver has the same effect. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of such semi-auto guns in the USA. If someone breaks into my house whilst I or my family are inside, they can expect a swift response from a 12 guage shotgun. They are not a target, but a violent criminal intent on something other than tucking me in and kissing me goodnight. The chances of this happening? Very slim in the area I live. But I chose to be prepared. In other, less well to-do suburbs, it may be a nightly struggle to stay alive.

Perhaps you are confused with full-auto/select fire guns, which have been banned in most forms in the USA since 1967 I believe. Now keep in mind, this doesn't stop the drug dealers/gang members etc from procuring their very own sub machine guns and pistols. They don't get licensed with the state, they don't have an FBI background check, a mental health check, the checking of references etc. They don't care about the law, they are criminals.

Unless you live in a very rural area, open carry by citizens can cause a degree of panic in the populace . Generally you would only see open carry by uniformed personnel (police, SWAT, security etc). The beauty of concealed carry is that when a violent criminal is in an area where he knows there is a good likelihood of their victim being armed, he doesn't know who in particular is carrying. Coule be Ethel the grandma at 70 years of age, or Bob the gas station attendant at 25. So those who choose to take on the burden of concealed carry make the streets safer for all. The idea that the only people who carry concealed are those itching to slaughter someone in the street is a little fanciful, can you show men even a singel news article where someone legally carrying a concealed pistol used it in a manner that was found to be illegal? Tens of millions of US Citizens carry each and every day. No innocent lives are lost, in fact many are saved by either the general deterrence of an area allowing carry, or the ultimate deterrence when the previous "victim" instead turns out to be someone who can fight back.

Compare this to the tens of millions of drivers that get in their cars/trucks each day. 50,000 or more of them each year don't make it to where they are going. You don't ban cars because a certain population cannot drive sensibly. You take away their license, and if they are really out to lunch, put them in jail.

The criminal would rather attack the weak, so he is more likely to commit a crime in an area where he knows that all citizens are unarmed. The inner city areas of many larger cities being a prime example.

We now have multiple school shootings. You cannot carry concealed in a school building without the administrators permission, so chances are no one is carrying concealed. The nutjob psycho students can walk in with heavy weapons, and slaughter children as they cower under their desks. We don't live in a police state, there isn't a cop at every corner. Some choose to take on some of the burden of safety for themselves. I see no reason to deny them this advantage against the criminal element.

The lethality of any weapon is directly related to the mindset of the person operating it. A butcher's knife can be used to carve a turkey, or kill a person. The human element is the sole distinction. The knife is a tool, just like a gun. And yes, there are groups that would like to see sharp pointy objects banned as well.

Anyways, I'm sure we will never agree on gun control, but I thought I would put a little perspective from the other "nutty" side ;)
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
The private ownership of full auto weapons was banned in the USA in 1937. There is a license you can apply for to have one. It cost $500.00 and requires a complete FBI investigation of your soul. The importation of full auto weapons were also banned.
If you really want one, just call your friendly drug cartel in Brazil and have him throw one in with the drugs. UPS or Fed-Ex it to your door. The Feds will never stop all the illegal drugs coming into the country, nor the illegal weapons.
The TV,movie, and news people make it seem like every other person has a full auto Uzi in their back pocket. Not so. How many times on the evening news have you heard "full auto pistol"? It's great for headlines and getting the ratings up, but factually incorrect.
What the news media doesn't report is most weapons used in crimes are stolen. That's were I have a rub with legal gun owners. They don't properly secure their weapons.
Having a semi-auto shotgun is perfect for small game, where you might have multiple targets. (Or you miss a lot on the first shot :oops: ) And, it's almost mandatory for Trap and Skeet shooting.

Bozo :joker:
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,746
Location
Horsens, Denmark
My opinion on freedoms that could have negative consequences is to increase the penalties.

can you show men even a singel news article where someone legally carrying a concealed pistol used it in a manner that was found to be illegal?
This is a very good point.

That's were I have a rub with legal gun owners. They don't properly secure their weapons.
This is another good point.

So....we make it hard but not impossible to get a gun. We hold the proper owner of the gun directly liable for any crimes committed with that gun (stolen and used to hold up a bank? You are a robber. Your son shoots himself in the head? You are a murderer.) Anyone found with an illegal weapon is to be charged with attempted murder.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
I have no problems with increasing penalties for illegal gun posession. However it seems that even now, criminal possesion of a firearm is dealt with by a slap on the wrists by the Courts/Prosecutors. Let's enforce already existing laws, instead of just putting more on the books to make the public feel safer.

Also, the problem is that the criminals already have millions of guns. Perhaps banning them would work, if the criminals handed their's in as well. Unfortunately they won't, and therefore a utopian "gun-free" society cannot be. Pandora's box has been opened.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,302
Location
I am omnipresent
The nutjob psycho students can walk in with heavy weapons, and slaughter children as they cower under their desks.

I have a confession to make.

I have a great deal of empathy for those Trenchcoat-mafia types. A lot of them are acting out against the same system a lot of lonely, geeky, socially maladjusted kids run up against. They're the butt of jokes. They're the ones who are teased and humiliated every day for years at a time. They turn on their fellow students after what is for them a lifetime of rejection.

Some of those geeks never recover from that and I believe that very few people, even here, understand what it can be like to be in that particular social position. I certainly lived through it, and I did everything I could to disappear while I was at school.

I'm not suggesting that what they do is right or acceptable, but when some kid shoots up a school, a part of me really does believe that the institution, if not the particular victim(s) probably deserved it. Instead of thinking of the tragedy of the dead children, I have the HOPE that whatever led Mr. Nutjob to cap a few cheerleaders leads to introspection and perhaps an lifelong change in social behaviors for the kids who managed to outlast the Psycho's supply of bullets.

That is my confession.
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
I have no problems with increasing penalties for illegal gun posession. However it seems that even now, criminal possesion of a firearm is dealt with by a slap on the wrists by the Courts/Prosecutors. Let's enforce already existing laws, instead of just putting more on the books to make the public feel safer.

Also, the problem is that the criminals already have millions of guns. Perhaps banning them would work, if the criminals handed their's in as well. Unfortunately they won't, and therefore a utopian "gun-free" society cannot be. Pandora's box has been opened.

Most states have a law that says you will get 5 years in prison for commiting a crime with a gun. And that is supposed to be on top of the punishment of the crime. Unfortunately, the lawyers and courts usually only give the 5 years thinking that is enough, or they find a loop-hole to put the scum bag back on the streets "on probation".
There are over 12,000 gun laws in the US. (state and federal). The scum bags don't think any laws apply to them. So the laws become a pain in the ass to the law abiding citizen. Just look at the RIAA prosecutting a 12 year old for downloading 3 songs, while the scum bags are selling illegal CDs by the tons.

Bozo
 

Bozo

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
4,396
Location
Twilight Zone
I have a confession to make.

I have a great deal of empathy for those Trenchcoat-mafia types. A lot of them are acting out against the same system a lot of lonely, geeky, socially maladjusted kids run up against. They're the butt of jokes. They're the ones who are teased and humiliated every day for years at a time. They turn on their fellow students after what is for them a lifetime of rejection.

Some of those geeks never recover from that and I believe that very few people, even here, understand what it can be like to be in that particular social position. I certainly lived through it, and I did everything I could to disappear while I was at school.

I'm not suggesting that what they do is right or acceptable, but when some kid shoots up a school, a part of me really does believe that the institution, if not the particular victim(s) probably deserved it. Instead of thinking of the tragedy of the dead children, I have the HOPE that whatever led Mr. Nutjob to cap a few cheerleaders leads to introspection and perhaps an lifelong change in social behaviors for the kids who managed to outlast the Psycho's supply of bullets.

That is my confession.

I can relate by proxy: my son went through the same thing. His mother and I took on extra work to put him in a private school. But he still has scars (emotionally) from that time in his life.

Bozo :joker:
 

Fushigi

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,890
Location
Illinois, USA
Let's enforce already existing laws, instead of just putting more on the books to make the public feel safer.

Two problems with this:

1. Legislators like to be (one could argue have to be) seen as "doing something" and the way they do something is by creating more laws. This is especially true when something is the current hot news topic.

2. Governmental bodies, including said legislators, would have to fund the law enforcement areas better to give them the resources to enforce the laws. But law enforcement generally doesn't fit in with their pork plans so it gets neglected. There is also a waterfall effact that would mean larger prosecutor offices and more/larger prisons. Each of those costs the government money. Which could necessitate a tax hike. (Governmental leaders tend to ignore that the costs of not enforcing the laws is generally far greater.)


And it is certainly not limited to gun control. Think of all the 'no cel phones while driving' laws and similar laws about things that take the driver's attention away from driving. Every last one is superfluous as 'distracted driving' and 'reckless driving' laws already exist.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Lets go after the doctors who have such bad penmanship people die when the pharmacist gives them the wrong medicine because they can't read it. There are many thousands of deaths each year from it.
 

Sol

Storage is cool
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Messages
960
Location
Cardiff (Wales)
I have to say I honestly don't believe having a gun in your house makes you any safer. I say this as a person who keeps 4 guns in his house (Well not at the moment since I live in the UK and don't have a licence here, but normally) but there is no way I would make any attempt to grab one in the event of a robbery.
Firstly where do you keep your gun that you can get to it in time for it to be of any use in a robbery? It is remotely safe to keep it there? Even if you don't have kids who could find it do you make it more secure when you leave the house or could it be easily stolen? Do you keep it loaded?
Secondly what do you do with it when you meet the intruder? Do you just blow them away no questions asked? That's the safe bet, anything else and they might have a chance to react, if they have a gun they may well shoot you if your armed and don't just kill them right away, are you ready to do that? Are you sure? What if they take you by surprise? Wouldn't you rather there wasn't a gun involved at that point? What if the first person you meet in the house isn't the intruder?

If your a trained swat agent and you sleep with a gun under your pillow then maybe your safer with it than without... For the rest of us I'm not so sure... I'm quite happy to have my guns locked in a safe with the bullets locked in a separate compartment.
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
How about sleeping with a taser under your pillow. That has to be a lot safer than a gun. Plus, you probably won't be able to kill someone with it.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
The laws of the State of New York permit residents to use any amount of force, including lethal force, when dealing with a criminal who has broken into your house whilst you are inside. Which is as it should be. The house is the 'castle'. The fact that he may or may not be armed is not a factor, if he sees cars in my driveway, and knowingly enters the house, he's got more stupidity than common sense.

Most importantly, criminals know the risks they take when commiting a burglary, therefore the occurance of home invasions is quite slim.

Of course if you were to do the same in Australia, chances are you would be charged with murder, if not manslaughter. The criminal is the protected species in Aus (and the UK for that matter). In Australia, after the semi-auto/pump action ban, there was a significant increase in "hot burgleries", aka home invasions. Why? Criminals knew the chances of the occupants of a residence being armed and resisting were slim to nil.

Guns are stored in a locked safe. My kids have no mysteries about the functioning of guns, and of the damage they can do to animal life. They have seen deer shot with a 12 guage, they know they are not toys. If they see an unattended gun whilst out playing, they know to contact someone in charge straight away. Still have to lock them up, you never know how other kids will act when they come over to visit, as the kids get older.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
Found something interesting today. IBM Director can be used to set a max power cap on the x3650 servers. i.e. if the power load goes beyond the setpoint, it will throttle down the CPUs to keep it within your parameters.
 

Fushigi

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,890
Location
Illinois, USA
Sounds interesting. Power & thermal controls are going to be gaining in popularity as the data center power/HVAC 'crisis' continues.

In a couple of weeks we'll be setting up a Dell PowerEdge 6950. Quad dual-core 2.8GHz Opterons, 16GB RAM, 6 x 146GB 15K SAS. Disk will be 2 mirrored sets with a hot spare for each. We're piloting a WebSphere App Server app and will likely try 32 & 64 bit Windows as well as Linux and quite likely Windows or Linux on VMWare. Each Windows iteration will be tested under both IIS & Apache. Whichever performs the best & scales the best will win.

And no, I won't be able to Fold on it.
 
Top